Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

So you honestly believe that people who are active on the forums represent a accurate sampling by player type of the subscribers of the game? That’s not even accounting for the fact that the people who responded aren’t a random sampling of the population of people active on the forums. It’s a poll of a very narrow subsection of the playerbase of which we don’t even have numbers to show the people actively choosing not to respond. To put it simply, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

This is honestly such an odd PoV, I honestly will never understand it and feel like it’s borderline tinfoil hat worthy. The only bias that can actively be attributed to the forums is that we all play the game, because responding to a survey doesn’t inherently mean that the population that responded to it is biased in one direction or another. Ask yourself the following:

• How do we determine if something is a carcinogen?
• How we determine what contaminant levels are safe in drinking water (eg. lead)?
• How we determine what kind of floods we design our cities for?

If you don’t like that the forums are a statistically significant sample of a population of the active player base, I’d hate to think of how you’d respond when you find out public safety works in a very similar manner.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Ah yes, another tangent about irrelevant things as you try to assert that the number of people posting about forging is meaningful, all because you want to believe that your opinion is shared by a significant amount of players. You do see that there are 4 times the amount of responses in the current High Elf thread right? And we’ve had dozens of those. Hell, even portal removal has more responses than this. There’s 2 threads with over 9000 responses. There were almost as many responses to the Guild UI and permissions thread. To pretend the number of people raging about forging is off the charts, that the majority or even a meaningful amount of people feel forging is an issue is laughable. But you believe what you need to believe to feel your opinion is validated.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

Does it impact the enjoyment of the reward structure that comes from that content? Based on responses this thread - it definitely does have an impact on enjoyment.

Ah yes, another tangent about irrelevant things

Yep it does for a statistically insignificant amount of testimonials.

For a 2,000,000 population size, you need 385 participants for 95% confidence with a 5% margin of error - assuming a random representative sample.

You started the tangent lmfao. Made a comment that it has an impact which could be positive or negative depending on the person. Instead you decide the comment has to have a bias, and asininely insert a mathematically incorrect statement to try and assert yourself, and I corrected it. In all of this, I even specifically said that the devs may or may not doing anything about it. I can’t even, this is 10/10 .

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

That’s exactly my point. This is the middle ground between those two extremes. We’ve just had one and not had the other.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I think we’re experiencing the extreme swing the other way right now. It just needs to be toned down a bit. I’m not saying take it all away, just bring the max to 15 i-levels.

You keep saying this as if it’s factual. It’s not.

How is it not factual? Titanforged 425 from 370 exists. I have a 50 i-level upgrade on right now.

We have never had an extreme of mythic-quality loot dropping from the sky like candy. That is not what we have now. We have quite a bit of baseline loot dropping, sure, but without extreme, outlier-levels of luck, no one is going to be mythic-level geared just from doing world content.

Except I never said mythic geared, I said invalidating LFR and Normal gearing. So 385-ish i-level, which is possible. Now if this is their intention to invalidate up to Normal, then there’s not much I can do about that except express my feelings and thoughts about it. Which I am doing.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

The way forging works now in most cases for me and fellow guildies (in raid specifically since gear from other sources besides M10 is sharded/scrapped 99% of the time anyway) is that if a piece doesn’t forge we’re disappointed and thus the piece has little-no value

The other possibility is gear would never forge at all. So you’d always be disappointed.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

That’s not necessarily the extreme. Personally I think the extreme is when I checked when we were 4ish weeks into the expansion the average ilvl for boss kills at normal/heroic (subtracting the # of parses at higher difficulties at each ilvl to approximate just the heroic/normal ones) is ~382 and ~397 from Warcraft logs IIRC. So the extreme in this scenario is that the availability of loot (I personally think compounded by the TF system), has made the base rewards from normal/heroic relatively negligible at that difficultly.

Again has nothing to do with titanforging, it’s purely because of M+ that people are able to zone into raids at ilvls close to what the raid drops.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

That’s because you think that the responses here are, “a random representative sample”. They aren’t. Your position is a joke and you’re doubling down on it. Demonstrate how ridiculous you are for all to see

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

For a 2,000,000 population size, you need 385 participants for 95% confidence with a 5% margin of error - assuming a random representative sample.

Sorry the forums are not a random representative sample. Thanks for trying though…

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

I think we’re experiencing the extreme swing the other way right now.

An extreme swing is when casuals actually have progression that results in them being less geared than everyone doing any organized content at all?

How is it not factual? Titanforged 425 from 370 exists. I have a 50 i-level upgrade on right now.

You seem to believe that simply acquiring a single piece of forged gear that forges to the cap from 370, which is extremely rare, invalidates entire tiers of content. It doesn’t. Unless that’s happening for each of your slots and you intended to actually raid on that toon anyways. Neither of those things is true. You’ve already stated it’s your alt.

[Mayaloos-llane (Mayaloos)]

For a 2,000,000 population size, you need 385 participants for 95% confidence with a 5% margin of error - assuming a random representative sample. Pretty confident that there are 385 unique posters in this thread or at least close to it, all have which have engaged with the game differently and are therefore random. On that basis, this thread is a relatively good sample size and provides statistically significant insight into player opinions.

You would also select your study subjects account for different play styles, levels of commitment, amount of play time, and various factors, if you were conducting a study. The forums are definitely not a cross-section of the playerbase. The people passionately posting in this thread are a specific subset of players who probably play a lot more than average, and are engaged enough to post in these types of threads.

[Provemewrong-uldum]

You seem to believe that simply acquiring a single piece of forged gear that forges to the cap from 370, which is extremely rare, invalidates entire tiers of content. It doesn’t.

This is an understatement, perhaps you should bold this for more to see.

I believe this is their main leg to stand on with the argument which a complete fallacy.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

The people passionately posting in this thread are a specific subset of players who probably play a lot more than average, and are engaged enough to post in these types of threads.

Yep, and it’s interesting to note that the engagement in this thread is actually rather low. The removal of a handful of portals to old world content is getting 3 times the activity. Let’s think about that for a second. That’s how important this issue is to the average person on the forums. It’s drawing less interest than old world portals. But guys, guys, forging is ruining the game!

[Mayaloos-llane (Mayaloos)]

Yep, and it’s interesting to note that the engagement in this thread is actually rather low. The removal of a handful of portals to old world content is getting 3 times the activity. Let’s think about that for a second. That’s how important this issue is to the average person on the forums. It’s drawing less interest than old world portals. But guys, guys, forging is ruining the game!

I find it interesting to speculate on why the game is declining. The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that it’s just because this game is old. I’ve been playing since launch day in vanilla, personally. I’ve taken a couple of breaks, but not that many. That was 15 years ago.

I really don’t think there’s any single feature that Blizzard could add or remove from this game that would bring us back to the “glory days.” It’s not flying, it’s not titanforging, it’s not levelling speed or anything, it’s just that things change.

I would bet that most people playing this game are veterans, and there isn’t that big of a stream of new players any more due to the age of the game.

15 years is a long time. I was in college when WoW launched, and after college I had so much time on my hands to just play and play and play, and raid and raid. Now I’m happy that I can login and work towards gear upgrades without having to commit to a raid schedule. I have 2 kids now.

I really think what they’re ultimately doing is catering to their old(er) crowd.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

I agree with everything you said. I honestly believe most people have moved on simply because their lives have changed and they can’t devote time to the game or their priorities have shifted. I know dozens of people who got married, started having kids, their careers got more demanding, etc., and that’s why they no longer play WoW. And I think a lot of the changes to WoW are predicated on trying to continue engaging that aging audience with shifting life priorities as much as possible. But that’s speculation based on my anecdotal experience.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Objectively, it’s over-rewarding

Really now? Your opinion that something is over-rewarding is objective? Hrm. lol

[Cyouskin-stormreaver (Cyous)]

Really now? Your opinion that something is over-rewarding is objective? Hrm. lol

Compared to Heroic mode-- absolutely. It’s not even a debate.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Then you might wanna look at the definitions of the words you’re using. Whether something is appropriate requires subjectivity. Which means you’re objectively wrong, it’s not objective, it’s an opinion.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

You don’t have to have the discussion with me. I’m still going to point out when you try to present your opinion as objective. If you have a problem with that, well, perhaps try not presenting your opinion as objective.

Here’s a tip:

Quantitative (objective statement): It’s the same ilvl as heroic!.
Qualitative (subjective statement): It’s too good/too bad/just the right reward!

No amount of tantruming or denying reality will change that.

[Cyouskin-stormreaver (Cyous)]

Ion literally said “400 caches were probably too high.”

Objectively, it’s a guranteed 400+ item.
Heroic is a 20% chance at a 400+ item per boss.

you’d need 4-5 Heroic bosses to get a piece of gear (on average). The overwhelming majority of players don’t step into Heroic. And it’s uncommon for players to push past the first 3 bosses.

So yes, it’s over-rewarding.

Now, are you going to respond to points, or are you just going to give me another reason to dismiss your posts?

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

What Ion said proves it’s subjective. And here’s the kicker, I actually agree with you. I think 385 is a better reward ilvl. I’m just not confused about whether something is an opinion or not.