Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

All of that… and they haven’t even started PvE progression beyond the lowest tier of PvE content. That does not make sense to me.

If this were a decade ago I might agree with you. I’m past the point now where I think there needs to be hard limits on loot based progression. Nothing breaks when the casual player who doesn’t ever intend or desire to set foot in anything more than LFR gears up to normal raider ilvl in ~3 months (the toon is wearing 385 Darkshore gear which released mid Dec). Who really cares if they outgear normal mode if they won’t see it by choice regardless? Which means it’s not breaking anything progression-wise. Anyone who’s been in normal and farming solo content is going to be in the 390’s by now. Heroic raiders are pushing 405-410. Mythic even higher. There still exists a gap between the top and the bottom. It’s just not 40-60 ilvl now and the people on the bottom have content they can do to gear up over time. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing.

I think the combination of all these things together… is a problem. I think it contributes to us running out of gear progression faster. Or hitting the points where we are starting to rely on seriously low RNG to continue our characters progression.

Do you think it’s a good or bad thing that people who don’t want to or cannot raid mythic have content to do that’s difficult and comparably rewarding? Is it the fault of the system if people are choosing to engage in both reward pathways and then hitting a point where more and more of their drops need to forge to be upgrades?

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

I’m past the point now where I think there needs to be hard limits on loot based progression. Nothing breaks when the casual player who doesn’t ever intend or desire to set foot in anything more than LFR gears up to normal raider ilvl in ~3 months (the toon is wearing 385 Darkshore gear which released mid Dec). Who really cares if they outgear normal mode if they won’t see it by choice regardless?

That player said in another thread that he saw no point in doing normal mode. I guess that broke it for him? This level of gear inflation only suits people who have no interest in progressing beyond the lowest tier of content and instead prefer to non-stop rolling dice so they can increase their ilvl for… reasons… and those who need to quickly gear up alts for end-game progression. It doesn’t suit those who would actually like to have a typical character progression curve.

Do you think it’s a good or bad thing that people who don’t want to or cannot raid mythic have content to do that’s difficult and comparably rewarding? Is it the fault of the system if people are choosing to engage in both reward pathways and then hitting a point where more and more of their drops need to forge to be upgrades?

Yes. To me that’s the definition of a fault of the system. I’d prefer the system to encourage natural progression over time. Not have us in a non stop gear up sprint only to run head long into the RNG brickwall.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

That player said in another thread that he saw no point in doing normal mode.

So why weren’t they in normal mode already? I mean, if they intended to go into normal why did they wait until they outgeared it? They could have started normal 7 weeks ago. But they didn’t. Which means there’s doubt about whether they had any intent on raiding in the first place. I have to be skeptical of people who claim to be casual but don’t like the loot system. I have alts comparably geared who have done no group content, I could easily start making the same posts but I’m far from a casual player.

Yes. To me that’s the definition of a fault of the system.

See, I see it as the fault of the player. If you’re going to push all avenues of content you can’t complain when you hit a wall faster than other people. Well, you can, but I can’t take such complaints seriously. Blizzard has stated they do not design things based upon those who are going to min/max everything because doing so would penalize the average player. Exactly like your suggestions to “fix” forging.

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

I’m past the point now where I think there needs to be hard limits on loot based progression. Nothing breaks when the casual player who doesn’t ever intend or desire to set foot in anything more than LFR gears up to normal raider ilvl in ~3 months (the toon is wearing 385 Darkshore gear which released mid Dec). Who really cares if they outgear normal mode if they won’t see it by choice regardless? Which means it’s not breaking anything progression-wise.

There is very little that I could even use from Normal difficulty and I’ve only killed one boss in Normal and completed one M+ dungeon. It feels like a wasted night (gearing wise) to help my friends that run Normal difficulty. Yet I have a piece of gear that can’t even be replaced in a Mythic raid. Yes, it can upset the progression path.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

So why weren’t they in normal mode already? I mean, if they intended to go into normal why did they wait until they outgeared it? They could have started normal 7 weeks ago. But they didn’t. Which means there’s doubt about whether they had any intent on raiding in the first place. I have to be skeptical of people who claim to be casual but don’t like the loot system. I have alts comparably geared who have done no group content, I could easily start making the same posts but I’m far from a casual player.

I mean, you can sit here and make assumptions if you want. What I see is that the system gave the player rewards from the easiest tier of content that didn’t just prepare him for the next tier of difficulty, didn’t just prepare him for the tier of difficulty after that… but even gave him a few rewards that would necessitate luck on top of that second tier of difficulty…

That to me is just flawed progression period. I don’t think that should happen. I do think such a system contributes to players running out of things to do.

See, I see it as the fault of the player. If you’re going to push all avenues of content you can’t complain when you hit a wall faster than other people. Well, you can, but I can’t take such complaints seriously. Blizzard has stated they do not design things based upon those who are going to min/max everything because doing so would penalize the average player. Exactly like your suggestions to “fix” forging.

I mean… the progression game is built around progressing. How exactly is it the fault of the player to… play the game? Let’s not forget that we’re not talking about some crazy level of playing to achieve this. We’re talking about a WF every now and then, a few WQ, a few M+. That’s bare minimum effort to already be outgearing Normal mode and requiring WF/TF from heroic mode. That’s hardly min/maxing.

As for my “fix” to forging… I still don’t see exactly how a +15 cap would be a “bad” thing? Maybe explain why it’s absolutely necessary that it be possible to +30 TF. I’ve explained the benefits of a cap (a determined upper limit of power for a piece of content). What would you consider the downside?

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

In short, “I don’t think other people deserve the loot they are getting.”

It’s like when I play monopoly. When I land on Boardwalk with Hotels, and I don’t have the money to pay, I reach over to the bank and grab some bills.

Sometimes people get all pissy at the way I play and get rewarded. I mean, I took the time to play the same game everyone else at the table was playing. Why should I not be rewarded similarly? Why do they care how I play the game? How does it affect them?

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

What I see is that the system gave the player rewards from the easiest tier of content that didn’t just prepare him for the next tier of difficulty,

If you think that’s why people do emissary quests or warfronts or world bosses or that that is the only point for them to exist then you’re mistaken. For those that wish to continue on, yes, those things help catch up quickly to acceptable levels for that content at which point they can transition over to doing it. For those that don’t, that serves as the primary content they’re going to be doing for the tier. You can’t be part of the latter group and complain that you didn’t have an opportunity to do the former (as your example). The option was there. It wasn’t utilized.

And the bulk of players probably fit in the latter. Hell if we’re just talking about ourselves I fit in the latter sorta. I might do ~7 hours of M+ and raiding a week at the most. I then probably spend 15-20 hours on alts doing invasions, emissaries, warfronts, weekly quests, trying different toons in Warmode, gearing up the ones I’m enjoying, etc.

How exactly is it the fault of the player to… play the game?

You’re consuming the content and complaining that there’s no more content to consume because you consumed it all. You’re binge watching a series on Netflix and then complaining that it went by too quickly. That’s all you.

Let’s not forget that we’re not talking about some crazy level of playing to achieve this.

We’re talking about two different groups of people here, so I can understand how this got crossed. I’m talking about people in your position (does high end raiding and M+). I don’t have a problem with people gearing up to normal mode levels in 3 months of playtime. People who actually want to raid normal mode do it far faster.

I don’t need to explain why it’s absolutely necessary. It’s the status quo. I’m not advocating a change to something different. You are. But I will explain what I don’t like about a cap. A 15 cap means less upgrade opportunities for any character not doing organized content. Those 370’s from doing Arathi warfront? With a 15 cap I have no reason to do it on most of my toons. The 355 world boss? Same deal. M0’s? Same deal. It makes certain content irrelevant. And that content that’s irrelevant grows as the expansion ages. That’s less things I would choose to invest my time into that I am investing my time into now. That’s why it’s bad. It’s less game for me your way.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

That’s a pretty silly false equivalency. Feel free to come back when you actually have an argument.

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

You’re consuming the content and complaining that there’s no more content to consume because you consumed it all. You’re binge watching a series on Netflix and then complaining that it went by too quickly. That’s all you.

When Netflix changes the play speed of those videos to 2x normal, then yes, it’s on Netflix.

I don’t have a problem with people gearing up to normal mode levels in 3 months of playtime. People who actually want to raid normal mode do it far faster.

But I pretty much geared this alt up to Normal raid gear level within a few weeks, not three months. I’ve killed one boss in Normal and done one +3 dungeon.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

If you think that’s why people do emissary quests or warfronts or world bosses or that that is the only point for them to exist then you’re mistaken. For those that wish to continue on, yes, those things help catch up quickly to acceptable levels for that content at which point they can transition over to doing it. For those that don’t, that serves as the primary content they’re going to be doing for the tier. You can’t be part of the latter group and complain that you didn’t have an opportunity to do the former (as your example). The option was there. It wasn’t utilized.

And the bulk of players probably fit in the latter. Hell if we’re just talking about ourselves I fit in the latter sorta. I might do ~7 hours of M+ and raiding a week at the most. I then probably spend 15-20 hours on alts doing invasions, emissaries, warfronts, weekly quests, trying different toons in Warmode, gearing up the ones I’m enjoying, etc.

The game isn’t split like that and many people are approaching this from many directions. I’m talking about the progression system in place. I don’t think doing tier of difficulty A should in anyway progress you past difficulty B, and certainly shouldn’t give you rewards that necessitate difficulty D to replace. That’s what I’m talking about.

It’s funny because… These exact same debates used to happen concerning content progression in the past. “It’s my $15 so I should be able to see the end of the story too!” Now we’re at the point where it’s not only content progression, but gear progression as well. “It’s my $15 so I should be similarly geared at the end of the tier too!”

In what world do you think it makes logical sense that someone should spam the exact same difficulty setting and continue to progress their character beyond other difficulties?

You’re consuming the content and complaining that there’s no more content to consume because you consumed it all. You’re binge watching a series on Netflix and then complaining that it went by too quickly. That’s all you.

Except they didn’t binge watch a Netflix series. They watched a 5 minute trailer that spoiled most of the plot points and the greatest jokes of the 3 hour movie, when they thought it was just going to be a teaser to get them hyped. And you’re saying it’s their own fault for watching the trailer…

Doing some WFs, some emissaries, and a few weeklies is in no way considered heavy levels of play. Heavy levels of play would be all of that + non-stop M+ + normal mode carry by guild + heroic mode carry by guild. A player that did all of that and then complained about running out of content… Fair enough. A player that did the lowest tier of content and then goes… huh… there’s literally no point for me to do anything below a +7 and there’s no point to go into normal mode? That’s in no way the same thing.

But I will explain what I don’t like about a cap. A 15 cap means less upgrade opportunities for any character not doing organized content. Those 370’s from doing Arathi warfront? With a 15 cap I have no reason to do it on most of my toons. The 355 world boss? Same deal. M0’s? Same deal. It makes certain content irrelevant. And that content that’s irrelevant grows as the expansion ages. That’s less things I would choose to invest my time into that I am investing my time into now. That’s why it’s bad. It’s less game for me your way.

Except that’s appropriate. It’s fine to eventually level out of content. That’s the point is to do content that is level appropriate, get rewards to prepare you for the next content, then continue to the next content. Rinse repeat. I think the idea of repeat content A ad nauseum and receive progressive rewards is counter to how progression has worked in this game for the vast majority of its lifetime.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

When Netflix changes the play speed of those videos to 2x normal, then yes, it’s on Netflix.

Netflix doesn’t determine how much you watch. You do.

But I pretty much geared this alt up to Normal raid gear level within a few weeks, not three months. I’ve killed one boss in Normal and done one +3 dungeon.

You do realize we can see that you have 2 pieces of 400+ Darkshore warfront gear right? That’s a once every 3 weeks piece of gear. So cool? You had good luck with drops and forging. Kudos. In the end, whether it takes you 1 week, 3, or 5 it’s irrelevant. You’re either going to go into raiding or not. Which means if you wanted to go into raiding you could have done that when you were 16 ilvl lower and been an acceptable range to do the content. You haven’t. You’re proving my point.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

That’s what I’m talking about.

Have I given you the impression that I don’t understand what you think the progression should be? I understand what you believe. WoW has not been that rigid in a looooong time (since at least pre-Legion). And I like that it’s not that.

“It’s my $15 so I should be similarly geared at the end of the tier too!”

That’s just dishonest. As mentioned, people doing mythic are outgearing people doing heroic are outgearing people doing normal are outgearing people not doing normal right now.

In what world do you think it makes logical sense that someone should spam the exact same difficulty setting and continue to progress their character beyond other difficulties?

Except progression is now a wave that grows for everyone over a tier. It’s not a static set of numbers. Casuals don’t get locked at a set ilvl until the next tier like they used to be. They get progression they can work towards that’s timegated and rng gated behind Emissaries, weekly quests, warfronts, and forging. This isn’t new.

Except they didn’t binge watch a Netflix series.

You’re conflating points I made. People doing heroic+ raiding and M+ 10’s weekly who are closing in on 415 are the binge watchers in that analogy, if you get there and complain that you hit a wall. That’s on you. I’m not talking about casual folks who do emissary quests and get to 385ish. This is the second time I’ve clarified this for you. I’m going to assume if you do so again that you’re doing so intentionally. That makes the rest of the paragraph meaningless. Again, so we’re clear, I like the fact that people can choose to engage in daily/weekly/monthly (warfront) content and progress up to normal raiding gear levels. It’s what I spend the bulk of my WoW playtime doing on alts.

It’s fine to eventually level out of content. That’s the point is to do content that is level appropriate, get rewards to prepare you for the next content, then continue to the next content. Rinse repeat

You seem to be confusing your opinion of how things should work with how they actually do work. What is appropriate to you are just arbitrary constraints you’ve decided everyone else should live with that isn’t consistent with the reward structure of WoW for this expansion or the last one. Games evolve and change. I’m sure you can find an EQ server up somewhere if you wanna enjoy a jaunt back in mmo time to the good ol days.

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

That’s a pretty silly false equivalency. Feel free to come back when you actually have an argument.

Seems spot on to me. Getting good stuff for not doing much at all makes a meaningless game. It’s no wonder people who care about the game get pissy if the rules are made to be dumb. It’s also great to present the “I don’t care about what other people have or do!” claim. You’re right, it is silly!

I got a 425 titanforge with a socket two days ago from a dungeon. I’m gonna use it, because that’s the game, but it’s stupid that I’m getting highest quality stuff for doing easy stuff. I’d rather that level of stuff come from actaully doing hard challenges.

WF/TF going up so high is pretty unmotivating.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

Have I given you the impression that I don’t understand what you think the progression should be? I understand what you believe. WoW has not been that rigid in a looooong time (since at least pre-Legion). And I like that it’s not that.

And I think that’s the crux of where we diverge. We have fundamentally different ideas as to how the game should progress. I prefer the pre-Legion more rigid structure, you prefer the post-Legion more free structure.

What I’m arguing for is a small shift of the pendulum back towards rigidity. I’m not saying that we should go back to have X fire resistance or it’s literally impossible to progress. I’m just saying that I don’t think the lowest tier of difficulty should surplant the difficulty above it completely. Which it currently does. Even at higher levels of progression, I think the systems walk on top of each other and get players to a point where you’re relying on RNG to continue your progression.

That’s just dishonest. As mentioned, people doing mythic are outgearing people doing heroic are outgearing people doing normal are outgearing people not doing normal right now.

Haha, yes I was intentionally being a bit hyperbolic there. I wish text conferred emotion better.

Except progression is now a wave that grows for everyone over a tier. It’s not a static set of numbers. Casuals don’t get locked at a set ilvl until the next tier like they used to be. They get progression they can work towards that’s timegated and rng gated behind Emissaries, weekly quests, warfronts, and forging. This isn’t new.

Except I don’t see that as progression except if you mean seeing your ilvl increase. Your not progressing into something else. You’re just rolling the dice over and over to see what comes out of the same hole. To me such progress is actually just content stagnation.

Again though, I think this just comes down to that we view the game differently.

You’re conflating points I made. People doing heroic+ raiding and M+ 10’s weekly who are closing in on 415 are the binge watchers in that analogy, if you get there and complain that you hit a wall. That’s on you. I’m not talking about casual folks who do emissary quests and get to 385ish. This is the second time I’ve clarified this for you. I’m going to assume if you do so again that you’re doing so intentionally. That makes the rest of the paragraph meaningless. Again, so we’re clear, I like the fact that people can choose to engage in daily/weekly/monthly (warfront) content and progress up to normal raiding gear levels. It’s what I spend the bulk of my WoW playtime doing on alts.

Ah gotcha, I think we definitely got our lines crossed as I was still talking about the example I had above.

You seem to be confusing your opinion of how things should work with how they actually do work. What is appropriate to you are just arbitrary constraints you’ve decided everyone else should live with that isn’t consistent with the reward structure of WoW for this expansion or the last one. Games evolve and change. I’m sure you can find an EQ server up somewhere if you wanna enjoy a jaunt back in mmo time to the good ol days.

As we said before, this is all opinions. And I do know how they do work. It’s my opinion that they shouldn’t work this way. Just like when these conversations in the past occurred, someone responded exactly along the lines of “What is appropriate to you are just arbitrary constraints you’ve decided everyone else should live with” just in the other direction.

I personally don’t think this style is healthy for the game, which has been for the vast majority of its life aimed at a more rigid style of content and gear progression. Only time will really tell whether this system will pan out to be superior. All I can say is that for me, it’s not. And that is my feed back to the developers. Am I still playing? Absolutely. Why? Gear progression isn’t the only reason I play this game.

I maintain that a +15 cap would be a healthy compromise that would continue to allow an element of RNG for the excitement and content repeatability that you’re stating you want. While simultaneously allowing players like me to have a defined upper limit of content power to better define our content goals. How is that not the epitome of a compromise to please both parties?

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

Netflix doesn’t determine how much you watch. You do.

If they’re upping the play speed intentionally, then yes, some of the blame for people speeding through their content is on them.

You do realize we can see that you have 2 pieces of 400+ Darkshore warfront gear right? That’s a once every 3 weeks piece of gear. So cool? You had good luck with drops and forging. Kudos. In the end, whether it takes you 1 week, 3, or 5 it’s irrelevant. You’re either going to go into raiding or not. Which means if you wanted to go into raiding you could have done that when you were 16 ilvl lower and been an acceptable range to do the content. You haven’t. You’re proving my point.

My point is that it’s entirely possible to almost outgear normal without really touching raiding or m+, and without much time or effort. And this is an alt. I wasn’t planning on raiding on her until some friends needed an occasional DPS or healer. I also have a resto druid that I geared just as quickly with an almost identical i-level that I bring when they need a healer.

Oh, and the 420 piece was a world quest piece that titanforged to higher than mythic raid level. Two of my 400s are from warfronts, one from the “run 4 mythic 0s” quest, and one was a normal 370 invasion piece that titanforged. None of those pieces required me to do actual raid or m+ content (or really any remotely difficult content at all). In fact, the gear I got from raiding and m+ is considerably lower than those pieces.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

And I think that’s the crux of where we diverge. We have fundamentally different ideas as to how the game should progress. I prefer the pre-Legion more rigid structure, you prefer the post-Legion more free structure.

Yep. I’m not trying to change your mind or say your opinion is wrong. I’m trying to say that the content is played differently and means different things to different types of players (or even the way people play different characters, i.e. mains versus alts). To me, the thing that matters is whether or not the ilvl range is differentiated by some degree. I wouldn’t want solo/non-queueable content that geared people to the same ilevel (in total, not a specific piece) as people who are farming heroic, and that’s an over time concept to me. I don’t care if someone hits 400 ilvl doing that. I care what ilvl the people are at who have been farming heroic in the same time frame are at.

I’ll be honest though, if they dropped down some of the 400 ilvl stuff to 385 (or comparable moving into the future) it wouldn’t bother me. But I actually really like the fact that M+ is now comparable to Mythic raiding(meh, close enough, 410 once a week, repeatable end dungeon chests at heroic level with a chance to forge).

I wish text conferred emotion better.

Ah gotcha, I missed that. It’s sad because people have actually argued that point in this thread and they’re serious.

Except I don’t see that as progression except if you mean seeing your ilvl increase.

Think about that for a moment. For someone who has no intention of doing any organized raiding or M+ what is progression? It’s just farming items from available soloable or queueable sources. Progression doesn’t equivocate to raid content. It equivocates to power gains. Raids are just one means to that end (getting better loot) but they’re not the only one. Solo progression can serve as a stepping stone to more difficult content. That doesn’t necessitate that it has to.

For me, I like to try every spec each expansion and I often circle back as different specs get reworks or updates to try them out. Some I enjoy and play a lot. Some, like this shaman, I had high hopes for and then when the “rework” happened I tried it and parked it because I didn’t like the outcome. I find it fun to gear up, try different builds, try different roles, etc.

As we said before, this is all opinions. And I do know how they do work. It’s my opinion that they shouldn’t work this way.

That’s kinda my point, the quip I threw out about finding an EQ server was an allusion to that. My opinion is that perspective is dated. I don’t see the clock being turned back here. Maybe some knobs being tweaked, but the paradigm has evolved into something else over time.

Let me ask you, are you planning on playing Classic? Do you believe that will be your primary WoW once it releases?

[Kalressa-wyrmrest-accord (Kalressa)]

I just wanted to mention that while you two may disagree, you do so amicably and with mutual respect, which is something that doesn’t happen often on these forums.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

Think about that for a moment. For someone who has no intention of doing any organized raiding or M+ what is progression? It’s just farming items from available soloable or queueable sources. Progression doesn’t equivocate to raid content. It equivocates to power gains. Raids are just one means to that end (getting better loot) but they’re not the only one. Solo progression can serve as a stepping stone to more difficult content. That doesn’t necessitate that it has to.

For me, I like to try every spec each expansion and I often circle back as different specs get reworks or updates to try them out. Some I enjoy and play a lot. Some, like this shaman, I had high hopes for and then when the “rework” happened I tried it and parked it because I didn’t like the outcome. I find it fun to gear up, try different builds, try different roles, etc.

See I understand that, the point where I start to question it is when it starts to leech over into the more traditional sense of progression (raiding etc.). A great example of where we had a similar problem in the past was LFR SoO (I may have brought this up previously). The SoO trinkets were so powerful that they were literally BiS regardless of ilvl and the only way to upgrade was to get a better version of themselves. I thought it was really bad form that mythic progression raiders were going into LFR to progress their characters. Now I’m definitely not stating that that’s happening now. But a similar concept is at play.

Why not use other motivators or utilize other gear progression systems to provide further content/gear for players who have zero interest in joining raiding content? Maybe utilize gear with affixes to buff them in the world. Maybe utilize gear to give them more convenience in the world. By doing this, would this not provide those players with the same level of character progression, while maintaining a sense of the traditional progression through raiding content?

That’s kinda my point, the quip I threw out about finding an EQ server was an allusion to that. My opinion is that perspective is dated. I don’t see the clock being turned back here. Maybe some knobs being tweaked, but the paradigm has evolved into something else over time.

Let me ask you, are you planning on playing Classic? Do you believe that will be your primary WoW once it releases?

I don’t know concerning how dated the perspective is given the amount of people talking about it. I also don’t see us going back to requiring fire resistance or else a certain boss will just 1 shot the raid. I think that’s highly unlikely to ever return. I guess for me, a +15 cap on TF is exactly what I mean by tweaking a knob. I’m not asking that we return to rigid drop templates, but I do think we could use a subtle shift of the pendulum back towards the old style.

As for classic, yes I do intend to play it. No I don’t intend it to be my primary WoW once it releases. I intend it to be my background WoW that I enjoy progressing through at my own pace. The game truly was about the journey back then and not the destination. I have no interest in rushing to 60. Retail raiding will likely always be my primary source of amusement in WoW and while it maintains its high quality, retail will remain what I focus on.

[Lykra-chogall]

To some degree yes, but it also depends on how long it takes to clear the content. Your statement is true for mythic raiding, but I don’t feel it is all that true for much else. Someone who can efficiently clear high single digit mythic plus but is struggling on 10+ is probably better off farming lower keys over and over (aside from one 10 for the weekly cache) for a bunch of WF/TF rolls than they are pushing for a smaller number of rolls at a higher base ilvl.

There just isn’t a whole lot of incentive to persevere through a more challenging level of content when the easier content can provide roughly equal rewards if done enough times.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

Don’t read the whole thread, we were less amicable above.

At the end of the day, as much as I dislike WF/TF, I want wow to succeed. If WF/TF is the way forward, then I’m not going to be the one to stand in its way. I used to despise LFR and was firmly against it. Overtime though, I’ve accepted it and don’t actually mind it being there. I’m willing to bet this will probably happen for me with WF/TF.

I’d personally prefer they not be there as I prefer the BC progression style, but I understand that I’m not everyone.