Why is it confusing? You wrote that I used a contrived example. That explicitly calls out that while I state what was possible (funneling loot to one player), it wasn’t an example of typical gearing as it wasn’t healthy for a guild to do that which I stated. That’s not a contrived example. It’s just a fact about the system I was pointing out.
The actual examples I used were that 6 weeks of farm (same point we’re at now) it wasn’t uncommon for people who raided to be 85% complete pending luck with drops. And in rare cases people would actually be done after 4 weeks of it. This is without funneling loot. You keep talking about how my example was predicated on loot funneling or it was contrived and yet you’re intentionally ignoring half of what i wrote to make that argument. Guess what that makes you?
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LOL! It is funny seeing this come from you.
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It doesn’t really bother me because raider io and warcraftlogs help you to match with people of similar skill level for the content you’re trying to complete, so item level isn’t the end all for me. Also, I think it’s hilarious that I received a 415 TF pair of pants from the Timewalking event that started shortly after the new raid opened.
Let’s look at statistics using data we know to see what the odds of the average player doing that previously are.
Let’s assume that people progress at a rate of 1 bosses per week on whatever difficulty they raid at and don’t look to continue the next progression tier.
- Vanilla -> 3 pieces of loot/boss over 40 people (7.5% chance per boss) 9 bosses in anquiraj, on average well over 5 months for everyone to get 14 pieces of loot.
- TBC, Loot changed to 1 piece of loot for every 5 players (20% per boss). SW on average was 3.5 months for 14 pieces, BT on average was 2.5 months for 14 pieces.
- Wrath, you got 1 difficulty lockout per week. (20% per boss). ICC had 12 bosses, average of 2.5 months to get 14 pieces of loot.
- Cata, Dragon Soul -> 8 bosses at 20% per player per boss. 2.75 months for 14 pieces of loot on average.
- MoP. introduction of coins, adding 3 extra boss drop chances per week, assume coin per boss up to a cap of 3 as they are cleared. SOO had 12 bosses +3 coins all at @ 20% chance. 2.5 months for 14 pieces of loot on average.
- WoD. reduction to 20 man raids. 3 coins per boss per week, HFC had 13 bosses + 3 coins @ 20% drop chance. 2.5 months on average for 14 pieces of loot.
- Legion. -> Introduction of TF/WF w/ M+.
These values are conservatively fast as it’s assuming that ML allowed you to assign BIS loot for every item without any waste which is extremely unlikely. Prior to legion the average player would not be able to get to a point where most/all their loot is better than the drops from the respective difficulty in 6 weeks.
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The point to progression raiding is to take down the bosses. Gear should be some of the incentive but for high end guilds, it is one of the easiest ways for them to gear and most efficient. I went with a great guild yesterday and cleared 8/9 H and 1st mythic boss in a couple hours of time. That is much more efficient than spamming mythic plus (although I like to do those as well). If you are only going for gear, then do what is most efficient. If you are doing progression for taking down bosses then do that or do both.
That’s not how loot has ever worked. It has never been an even distribution on a per player basis. That’s the math you’re doing to try to prove that the average is higher than 6 weeks. Except I never said average. I said it was rare but sometimes people were geared 4 weeks in. And it wasn’t uncommon for people to be 85% geared 6 weeks in. All that work you put in and your point goes down the toilet because you’re not actually responding to what I said. Wanna give it another go?
If you don’t like math that’s fine by me but it very clearly is showing that gearing was significantly slower during the times you’re referencing as the best pieces came from those sources. You’ve trying to use a contrived (Definition: unrealistic ~ e.g. rare/uncommon) example to counter the impact of TF/WF on speed of progression. You’re free to enjoy the speed of progression, but saying WF/TF doesnt have a significant impact on the speed is being intellectually dishonest.
I mean, this is what this was predicated on "we know people have geared faster pre-forging so that can’t be pinned on forging as the cause of the problem.”
No additional effort needed lol.
That shows that if everyone split loot evenly that’s the rate of time it would take for everyone to fill every slot. Can you point to a time in the game where that has ever happened? When has specific loot been guaranteed to drop so that you can evenly split and gear that way? I’m not talking about hypotheticals. I’m not talking about the average player, that’s just your strawman that you’re arguing against. In my statement that you quoted, can you find the word ‘average’? I mean, this is your argument, lol.
But it doesn’t have a significant impact.
The cause of gearing faster is the mythic+ cache loot which is base 410 ilvl. Which can be clearly seen on your own character and that of anyone else. Titanforging is a drop in the ocean compared to that.
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This exists because it’s part of the TF/WF system and a form of bad luck protection (which in and of itself has RNG). That guaranteed TF at the end of the week still has the chance for sockets and secondaries which is one of the key features of WF/TF. For me the sockets/secondaries are one of the main culprits that are blowing the relative strength of any given item out of proportion (relative to the source of content it came from). As an example -> 5 ilvl’s on bracers gives you +2/+1 on the first/second stat, and ~11 on the primary stat. 5 ilvl’s on pants gives you +3/+2 on first/second stat and ~18 on primary stat. So a socket is roughly equivalent to +10-15 ilvls (depending on the slot) just in terms of raw stats, that’s before considering stat weights. If we do, just as an example my ret spec values secondary stats at >2x more valuable than strength at the moment so in that context a socketed item could be as valuable as an item that’s +15-20 ilvls without one. This relative increase in strength is what’s impacting the availability of rewards from my progression. The raw ilvl isn’t as much of an issue as the secondary stats that are determined purely by RNG in the current iteration of WF/TF.
If sockets and secondaries could be applied through a deterministic method to any given piece of gear (rather than it be purely determined by RNG) my main issue with the system would be resolved because any item I got from the next difficulty/tier would be a direct upgrade without having to rely on a low proc chance of TF/WF. This was discussed earlier but given it’s now ~500 posts later it’s probably worth re-mentioning.
No, it isn’t. It’s base level 410 if you do a M+10. Got nothing to do with titanforging.
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They are correct… M+ is an “alternative” way of gearing up that was not available back in all those old expansions you listed. You can gear up to “near” Mythic raid level “only” by running M+ dungeons.
You are really confused about what is causing you to gear up faster.
I am not entirely sure how you joining a guild run that has everything on farm challenges my point. Of course when things are on farm status you get more efficiency. But even in a farm environment this is still less efficient than doing m+ (maths below as this isn’t my main point).
The argument that people should raid for the ‘feeling of accomplishment’ and not care about what rewards you get is complete garbage. In the world of video games and rpgs these are inseperable. It used to be that killing a boss typically provided a nontrivial power upgrade to your raid team. (In before spurious terrible itemization examples). It made you feel like your character was progressing due to a challenge you overcame, not some luck of the dice. This is a core component of any mmo/rpg. Today this feeling is only reserved for mythic raiders. We kill new bosses on heroic and get shards or, in those special cases, sub-5% upgrades. And even these upgrades are typically placeholders until we get something WF/TF from another source. It’s hard not to feel like normal and heroic raiding are a waste of time and energy. The system we have now rewards rolling the dice as much as possible, not overcoming challenges.
Maths: Raiding vs M+
Say it takes two hours to clear BoD on farm but not majorly outgearing. For us that is 18 WF/TF opportunities. Alternately we could do two m+ groups running 12s, 3 runs each, 3+ drops per run. Same 18 even assuming we don’t get ‘bonus’ pieces. Then add the fact that m+ awards weekly cache plus residuum, residuum that makes BoD Azerite mostly obsolete, provides opportunities for every stat combination, and can be run with zero lockout.
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Then a solution for you is simple…do mythic raiding then you can get upgrades and feel accomplished.
Been there, done that. If they still had 10-man mythic raiding we certainly would do mythic. Flex was supposed to be a level of content for small groups of friends like us, but it has slowly degraded to it’s pointless state.
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That doesn’t even change your statement nor the results nor my statement.
In the old system you can’t be geared faster than today UNLESS you are fed gear by ML. That doesn’t change.
Blizzard has even stated that PL drops more loot per boss on average than ML. On top of that it has the chance to be upgraded to a higher level.
I don’t know how you are still arguing that less drops without chances of upgrades provide quicker gearing than higher drop chances with potential upgrades up to item cap.
So yes, the idea that the old system was faster or even equal is incorrect without loot funnelling.
I wouldn’t bother mate. They are trying to argue two different statements at once and pick and choose when it’s applicable.
As soon as you respond to them saying about the fact they say it “wasn’t uncommon (ie is common)” they say they weren’t talking about the “average” and as soon as you say “funnelling gear” they say it’s not funnelling gear.
Responding is just degrading the thread. So from now I’m just going to continue to respond to others but not them, it might benefit you to do similar.
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Not many people are capable of doing a +10 key, alone alone stepping foot into Mythic+. But the rewards are relative to difficulty to a degree.
I don’t push all the blame into WF/TF. But there are plenty of sources of gear. The shear amount of them makes gear acquisition feel bloated.
Warfonts, Emissary Caches, Raids, Mythic+, and Titanforging on top of it all create an over-rewarding system. On top of that Personal Loot pushes more loot to groups outright. It’s literally designed to have a minimum amount of drops pushed each boss kill. Plus the fact you can trade them relatively easily, you’re accelerating the gearing process even more.
And for the record:
- Funneling gear rarely happened outside hardcore progression guilds.
- Titanforging only works with Personal Loot because Titanforging is 100% dependent on RNG.
- “I deserve loot because I killed the boss.” You helped. You didn’t solo the boss. Everyone deserves loot, but not everyone will get loot. Get over it. See you next Tuesday.
Ya’ll keep arguing about averages. It’s a stupid argument to have. You don’t have numbers to back up your claims and now you’re trying to argue numbers. Stop it. Talk about your personal experiences instead. I doubt any of you actually understand why gear funneling was a thing – and why it’s STILL a thing today.
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A whole lot more players do M+ than do Mythic raids. Plus you got people selling M+ runs all the time. I already explained how casual my guild is and we do M+10. We can easily drag our “carries” through M+10.
Sure, many players do M+. Very few of them to +10’s.
And as you claimed, you’re carrying people through 10’s. So, could those players do it without a coordinated group supporting them? Probably not. But given enough time to find a group of PUGs willing to take them, at best – maybe.
And I doubt most players who cannot do +10 normally are buying carries every. single. week.