Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

And again, remove forging from the equation and someone could easily be ML’d gear in the old system and be at exactly your position 4-5 weeks into a tier with absolutely nothing to look forward to.

I agree and I also think some of the problem for this person is Mythic+. Mythic+ can invalidate some of the Mythic raid gear due to multiple factors and this is contributing to their dilemma.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

Except that’s not what you said. You made the point that forging is not an incentive for people to do content. I wasn’t the only one that engaged you on it. My response was something along the lines of how we have people in this thread that argue they do fish for forges that like it and we have some that feel they have to and hate it, which means your claim is wrong. It is an incentive in many circumstances.

Except that’s exactly what I said and I clarified that it was based on my experiences, here just incase you forgot:

If some people are incentivized by it that’s more than none that you imply.

You’re assuming I implied something that I didn’t, I made a generalized statement and didn’t infer any totality - and the final point in it was “ … how the progression system can be improved for player retention of people like that. ”

But again, I’m actually trying to honestly assess your argument here, and if your intent is to claim that it’s not an incentive when you get close to capping out at 415 base ilvl or better on (almost, 2 pieces short but close) everything, well…yes. At that point if you’re good with giving up without finishing those last 2 slots and the possibility of forging doesn’t entice you, congrats, you’re done for the tier. Exactly as you would be pre-forging as you got closer and closer to getting BiS. I’m not certain why this is a problem as it’s not any different than a state that existed in the game before now. Forging didn’t cause it. Sometimes you just get really lucky in a given tier. Sometimes you don’t and you never get close to completing your set because stuff simply doesn’t drop for you. That’s life.

There is no argument, I’ve explained why it’s a bad system for me - for god knows what reason you’ve seemingly taken upon yourself to decide whether someone has a just reason in your eyes for having said experience.

Never said forging caused it my gear progression to stop. I’m saying forging accelerated it, big difference. If i didn’t have the forges i’d have 7 slots of my character progression left to go that could be upgraded with base ilvl mythic. Instead I’ve got 2 slots or 14% unless im praying for a TF/WF -> this has reduced the amount of available gameplay outside of wanting to continue to play with friends. There isn’t anything more to it, you’re not the judge of other peoples experiences.

Actually you’re confusing my point. I didn’t tell you that because I was trying to invalidate your position. Essentially I agreed with your assessment of what it actually does. The difference is that I see it and believe it’s doing exactly what it’s supposed to do. You’re supposed to be done once you hit 415ish if you aren’t having fun farming the content. But if you are having fun you can possibly get a reward while enjoying the content with your friends.

I’m not confusing you’re point, what you did was nit pick a specific point that’s part of my progression experience and project what you think experiences should be - despite the fact that you’re probably not at the same point in the game that I am - here is what you said:

Yes, individuals receive tiny power bumps from forging by repeat killing the bosses they can do. This allows groups they are part of to progress past bosses they might be stuck at. But this happens anyways without forging and the impact is far more meaningful from just base ilvl drops towards that end.

Which is not what I’ve experienced going from Heroic to Mythic, where my 410 titanforges are better than the base ilvl loot from Mythic. This is reducing the total amount of loot available from the content I’m progressing through. You need to stop projecting, you’re not the judge of other peoples experiences.

So… you’re arguing that it’s a progression system while you argue it doesn’t work as a progression system because your interpretation of Blizzard’s statements that lead you to believe they intend it to be, but it isn’t because the low chance doesn’t incentivize you to want to farm content to fish for forges? Do you understand how silly this sounds, that you’ll spend all this time arguing with me that it is a progression system, but your complaint is predicated upon the idea that it’s failing to be that?

It sounds silly because it is silly and not what I’ve said, nor is it an argument. What I’ve said is that it’s a progression system, and based on my experiences it’s a bad bad progression system in it’s current state. Saying it doesnt work as a progression system would be asinine because functionally it raises your ilvl - but keep misconstruing that if you want I guess. My complaint with it is that it does so in a way that makes the next level of content less enjoyable because you get less rewards from it - shortening the longevity of the games content and reducing the excitement of progression because I have a low threshold for my willingness to forge fish - as do the others who’ve said the same.

And again, remove forging from the equation and someone could easily be ML’d gear in the old system and be at exactly your position 4-5 weeks into a tier with absolutely nothing to look forward to.

We’re not playing the game of “what if” where we consider the hypothetical of whether ML comes back. You’re trying to use an extremely unlikely scenario - again - to try and invalidate my personal experience. It’s getting stupid at this point. That aside, if you have to rely on a hypothetical scenario to try and create progression parity on an equivalent timeline without TF in it’s current then you’ve failed to do so - yet again. This is also shoddy logic.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

But why do you lie so much? You have a total of 1 piece of forged gear equipment on your character which is only 5 ilvl higher than its base level. Literally everything else you have is from mythic raids and M+ cache. Titanforging has nothing at all to do with your gear levrl.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Shocker, much like everything else, you quote things out of context. Notice I said initial response there. I was speaking about where we began. I referenced how our conversation started (upon which you made a generic statement without the qualifier that you added much later) and you point at the middle of our discussion 4-5 days after the fact as proof of what your statement was intended to be? It’s childish, you’re now arguing with me about how we got to where we are in the argument.

There is no argument, I’ve explained why it’s a bad system for me

My point, which I made in numerous ways that you obtusely glossed over, is that forging didn’t create this scenario. It existed before now in previous systems. It’s going to exist forever. There will always be a point where a player caps out, or gets close so close to capping out for the tier that they don’t feel motivated by loot any further. It’s not new. It’s not bad. It’s just the way the game works. It’s the way the game has always worked. And there have always been people who got to that cap quickly.

Which is not what I’ve experienced going from Heroic to Mythic, where my 410 titanforges are better than the base ilvl loot from Mythic. This is reducing the total amount of loot available from the content I’m progressing through.

Hell, you aren’t even there yet and you’re crying about it as last I looked you have 2 pieces that would be straight upgrades if you had the mythic versions. But the fun part here is that mythic can forge too, which means while you’re trying to get those last 2 straight upgrades you can actually get upgrades to the rest of your gear. Which means your explanation is an oversimplification of the system because it’s just as possible as the heroic loot you have forging that the mythic loot will too.

You’re trying to use an extremely unlikely scenario - again - to try and invalidate my personal experience.

I mean sure, if you want to twist it into that to argue about it. The fact remains. Players getting to the point you’re close to isn’t a new phenomenon. It wasn’t unheard of for some people to be your point 4 weeks into a tier or hell, even complete BiS by then for the ultra lucky ones. There has always existed a wall in some form or another. That’s not a hypothetical, that’s a fact. So complaining about something that has always been seems rather redundant. Forging didn’t create this scenario. And considering how far we are into the tier and you aren’t even actually done yet, it certainly hasn’t exacerbated the problem.

But if you don’t like forging because of your feelings, cool. I’m not arguing that you should like it. I’m arguing that your claims as to why you don’t like it are contrived.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

At this point this is getting hilarious and it’s where the discussion ends. If I ever need a text book example of the definition of irony:

I didn’t tell you that because I was trying to invalidate your position

I’m arguing that your claims as to why you don’t like it are contrived.

Just be careful when you sound like you are speaking for others.

HMMMMMMMMM.

You’re so self conceded that you assume your subjective opinions are gospel. You’re struggling to see another perspective because you’re an LFR hero, not someone who is at the same point in the game that I am. You’re a hypocrite that assumes that subjectivity applies when you want it to, remember this is you’re opinion ->

You tried to argue that something that is subjective is wrong. i.e. “blah blah”

I explained personal experience but you took offense to that and decided that your subjective opinion matters to anyone but yourself . There is no argument here, but I applaud your efforts to try and create one I guess.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Do you seriously not understand the distinction between those two statements?

You: “I like the color red!”
Me: “Cool, why do you like the color red?”
You: “Because bunnies can fly!”
Me: “Uh? That doesn’t make any sense at all and it’s not true.”
You: “OMG STOP SPEAKING FOR ME!”

This discussion:
You: “I don’t like forging.”
Me: “Why don’t you like forging.”
You: “Because it reduces the amount of content I can do for upgrades, which reduces my incentives to play.”
Me: “But it doesn’t reduce the amount of content you can do for upgrades, we have the entire history of the game showing that there has always been a gear progression wall for people at the cutting edge of content and we know people have geared faster pre-forging so that can’t be pinned on forging as the cause of the problem.”
You: “OMG DON’T SPEAK FOR ME!”

You’re making a leap that simply isn’t logically sound. Pointing out your reasons are bunk is not in any way an attempt to invalidate your feelings or opinion on the matter. At no point did I say your opinion was wrong. It’s an opinion. You’re entitled to it. It’s no more or less valid than any other opinion in this thread for or against or whether people don’t care at all. But when you cite reasons that are just not true I’m not certain why you expect people to pretend they are. Better yet, since post number 1 in response to me you’ve constantly defaulted to personal attacks. You might want to look in the mirror there as to where the self conceit lies.

You’re struggling to see another perspective because you’re an LFR hero, not someone who is at the same point in the game that I am.

I did like this particular gem though. Speaks a lot about you.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

You: “I don’t like forging.”
Me: “Why don’t you like forging.”
You: “Because it reduces the amount of content I can do for upgrades, which reduces my incentives to play.”
Me: “But it doesn’t reduce the amount of content you can do for upgrades, we have the entire history of the game showing that there has always been a gear progression wall for people at the cutting edge of content and we know people have geared faster pre-forging so that can’t be pinned on forging as the cause of the problem.

Me: it’s not the only thing that causes that problem but TF/WF is accelerating the process. 2 pieces of 14 left to get, should be done in ~6 to ~7 weeks total. 7 pieces left to get should be done in ~11 to ~12 weeks total based on the current speed of progression.
You: If ML existed you’d still be at that point anyway
Me: ML doesn’t exist, and very likely isn’t coming back so shouldn’t be included the context this discussion.
You: Okay, well previously you’d get gear capped quickly anyway.
Me: That’s because ML existed that somewhat offset TF/WF, at least the rewards were still coming from that type of content. But even then it’s not as fast as we can gear currently. I think TF/WF needs a change that will provide a healthier increase to progression longevity than low % rng reward from TF/WF.
You: Your reasons are contrived.

There’s nothing else to it. You’re continuing to beat a topic to death and creating argument for the sake of it. You’re throwing a bunch of unrelated stuff out there and then getting flustered when someone starts calling you out on hypocrisy and irony. You do you fam.

[Ixis-stormrage]

I personally am not a fan of this system because my loot luck has always sucked, but at least I could buy raid upgrades off vendors with my badges in the past when Master Loot failed me for 2 months. Now these days… I have rarely received an upgrade from my cache since Legion, and I’ve done at least a +10 most weeks since the system was introduced. It’s become so much of a ‘meme’ for me that I just walk over to the scrapper and laugh about it on the way there. I’ve had duplicates of the same item level for the same slot every single season that I can do nothing with (this season it’s been all the 410 pants and waists you can dream of). And it’s not like anyone really wants these items because whenever I get extras to trade in raid, no one wants them! I even try to give them away for tmog! And I’m in a raid full of leather wearers. I would seriously love to get some Heroic Azerite after these 6 weeks.

It’s beginning to make me hate personal loot, which just feels like a very lazy way of dealing with loot in general. There seems to be no ‘smart AI’ to prevent a player from getting 5 pairs of 410 pants 5 weeks in a row, and then a pair of pants from your weekly quest, 2 more from your weekly raid, and at least 1 more from your weekly mythic+ runs. Whoops, there goes your chances of loot for the week, good luck if someone can trade you something that isn’t pants now.

PLEASE, SOMEONE TAKE MY PANT TMOG. I BEG YOU! sobs into a pile of pants

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

You: If ML existed you’d still be at that point anyway

The point was more nuanced than that and you’re intentionally glossing those details over. When ML existed this exact situation happened. Some people geared fast. Some people geared slowly. It depended on what content people did, luck, and whether you got gear passed to you (in the old system via ML). It still depends upon the exact same things. But the point has nothing to do with ML and everything to do with the fact that this is exactly the same way it’s always been since the inception of the game.

Me: That’s because ML existed that somewhat offset TF/WF, at least the rewards were still coming from that type of content. But even then it’s not as fast as we can gear currently.

Except with ML and drop luck it was possible for one person to walk out of the first raid with a full set of gear. That’s not possible right now due to personal loot and loot trading restrictions. I think you’re forgetting just how much control ML gave people over loot distribution. And while that wasn’t healthy for a guild to do, it wasn’t uncommon for some people to be ~85% complete gearing after 6 weeks. Which is right where you are now with 2 slots remaining to upgrade to mythic level. This doesn’t matter if we were talking about ML with forging or not. The situation existed pre-forging. It’s not new. Which means forging isn’t the cause. And your claim that forging is exacerbating the issue isn’t grounded in reality, it’s grounded in your bias against forging.

I’m confused about why you would bother responding to me if you think I’m creating argument for the sake of creating argument, particularly when you can just not respond to me. And I’m not flustered. The only hypocrisy and irony is in trying to pretend I’m speaking for you, exaggerating the outrage, quoting a blue that says don’t speak for others, and then turning around and trying to speak for me. That was very amusing. But you’re right with the overall sentiment. There’s nothing else to it. This conversation is dead. It’s just retreading paths we’ve already crossed at least once in most cases.

[Provemewrong-uldum]

Titanforge is AWESOME.

Always has been and always will be!

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

Me: it’s not the only thing that causes that problem but TF/WF is accelerating the process. 2 pieces of 14 left to get

You have 1 piece of forged gear on your character. 1. And it only forged 5 ilvls. Titanforging has nothing to do with why you’re gearing so fast. The reason you are gearing so fast is the base 410 ilvl rewards from mythic+ cache.

[Killershama-zuljin]

I sincerely hope the Warcraft Developers are keeping an eye on this thread and are not throwing this thread off into a corner. There is a lot of great feedback in this thread dealing with the pros and especially the Cons of the Titanforging system.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

You have 1 piece of forged gear on your character. 1. And it only forged 5 ilvls. Titanforging has nothing to do with why you’re gearing so fast. The reason you are gearing so fast is the base 410 ilvl rewards from mythic+ cache.

I’m in my ret set for WQ which is scraps of things I’ve kept around from my MS holy set. There’s a reason that someone Avagon said “you have 2 pieces left”, and it’s because I do on that set. Most of those forged pieces are better than base mythic ilvl because their socketed. Nice try though.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

I’m in my ret set for WQ which is scraps of things I’ve kept around from my MS holy set. There’s a reason that someone Avagon said “you have 2 pieces left”, and it’s because I do on that set. Most of those forged pieces are better than base mythic ilvl because their socketed. Nice try though.

You have 2 socketed M+ pieces, for a total bonus of 80 secondary stats. Yet you’re trying to pretend like titanforging is some gamebreaking system that’s ruining the game for you.

Literally everyone who rails against titanforging feels a great need to exaggerate the effects of it. Titanforging has barely affected your character at all. You need to exaggerate and lie to mount an argument against it, which shows how weak your argument is.

The rapid pace of gearing nowadays has little if anything to do with titanforging. The main factor is the 410 gear from Mythic+ caches.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

You have 2 socketed M+ pieces, for a total bonus of 80 secondary stats. Yet you’re trying to pretend like titanforging is some gamebreaking system that’s ruining the game for you.

Literally everyone who rails against titanforging feels a great need to exaggerate the effects of it. Titanforging has barely affected your character at all. You need to exaggerate and lie to mount an argument against it, which shows how weak your argument is.

The rapid pace of gearing nowadays has little if anything to do with titanforging. The main factor is the 410 gear from Mythic+ caches.

I’ve explained everything I’ve experienced as best I can. If you don’t agree, that’s fine, you don’t have to.

At this point, I really couldn’t care less what you think so save yourself the effort.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

I’ve explained everything I’ve experienced as best I can. If you don’t agree, that’s fine, you don’t have to.

At this point, I really couldn’t care less what you think so save yourself the effort.

Yeah the thing is your explanation doesn’t match reality.

But feel free to quit while you’re behind.

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

This discussion:
You: “I don’t like forging.”
Me: “Why don’t you like forging.”
You: “Because it reduces the amount of content I can do for upgrades, which reduces my incentives to play.”
Me: “But it doesn’t reduce the amount of content you can do for upgrades, we have the entire history of the game showing that there has always been a gear progression wall for people at the cutting edge of content and we know people have geared faster pre-forging so that can’t be pinned on forging as the cause of the problem.”
You: “OMG DON’T SPEAK FOR ME!”

Personally I think that this has been going on for far too long and both people need to let it go.

As for the actual statement though, you used a contrived situation in which ML is abused to funnel gear all to one player. Which yes, is correct in being able to gear you faster. However that situation is far from being considered the average situation.

When based on actual base loot it is impossible to say that you will gear faster from getting gear that is statically X item level as opposed to getting gear that is X item level and has Y chance to improve by Z item levels.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

As for the actual statement though, you used a contrived situation in which ML is abused to funnel gear all to one player. Which yes, is correct in being able to gear you faster. However that situation is far from being considered the average situation.

Except with ML and drop luck it was possible for one person to walk out of the first raid with a full set of gear. That’s not possible right now due to personal loot and loot trading restrictions. I think you’re forgetting just how much control ML gave people over loot distribution. And while that wasn’t healthy for a guild to do, it wasn’t uncommon for some people to be ~85% complete gearing after 6 weeks.

Care to try again?

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

As for the actual statement though, you used a contrived situation in which ML is abused to funnel gear all to one player. Which yes, is correct in being able to gear you faster. However that situation is far from being considered the average situation.

Except with ML and drop luck it was possible for one person to walk out of the first raid with a full set of gear. That’s not possible right now due to personal loot and loot trading restrictions. I think you’re forgetting just how much control ML gave people over loot distribution. And while that wasn’t healthy for a guild to do, it wasn’t uncommon for some people to be ~85% complete gearing after 6 weeks.

Care to try again?

Not sure what you are getting at.
Just because you wrote it yourself it suddenly becomes gospel?

What happened to not speaking for the majority of the player base?

It is statistically impossible for it to be the average situation.
Why you may ask? because the other 9+ people (depending on the expansion/raid) in the guild didn’t receive the loot because it was funnelled to one person

So no. That isn’t representative of the average player, and on top of that funnelling loot was a choice. Sure they ran out of progression sooner, but they chose to do that.
You can’t complain about getting BiS early when you chose to take gear that other people could just have well used.

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

Not sure what you are getting at.
Just because you wrote it yourself it suddenly becomes gospel?

What happened to not speaking for the majority of the player base?

It is statistically impossible for it to be the average situation.
Why you may ask? because the other 9+ people (depending on the expansion/raid) in the guild didn’t receive the loot because it was funnelled to one person

So no. That isn’t representative of the average player, and on top of that funnelling loot was a choice . Sure they ran out of progression sooner, but they chose to do that.
You can’t complain about getting BiS early when you chose to take gear that other people could just have well used.

Yup. Loot funneling to screw other players out of gear was definitely not the norm.