Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Chaaka-stormscale (Chaaka)]

You are making some kind of inference that there is a sinister motivation to removing tf.

We want to know why you think that.

[Lassanna-moon-guard]

I have been trying to decide what this complaining really was about. After watching it go on and on for days, decided it was the same a usual.

Snowflake syndrome again

Just to run down memory lane, here are 2 examples

1. WoTLK - You can now get epics from the higher end dungeons. I remember the crying how anyone not raiding deserves to be stuck in blue gear only.

2. LFR - Raid Finder for the general public. Oh the crying again about “welfare epics” and again how LFR should only drop blue quality gear because all the scrubs do not deserve epic.

Just be honest,

You would like to just Lord over everyone how much better you are then everyone else in your “special” epics. You can sit in SW and squawk in trade chat about all the scrubs who suck.

Also “casuals” is just the nice way saying scrubs.

The reason TF/WF is important, it is an a reward for people to continue playing different parts of the game, no more raid or die.

[Juggs-andorhal (Juggs)]

If I had a nickle for every time you’ve said obtuse or fallacious in this thread I’d be rich.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

“Casuals” don’t need everything spoon-fed to them, I respect them more than that.

Ah, yes, you “respect” casuals and that’s why you want forging removed. Ha!

What does removing wf/tf have to do with how someone feels about “casuals”?

This discussion isnt about “casuals”.

That’s literally what he said. Maybe go back and try to read what you’re responding to. That might help with the context. Hell, I even quoted it.

You are making some kind of inference that there is a sinister motivation to removing tf.

We want to know why you think that.

lol? You’re hilarious dude. Just hilarious.

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

You would like to just Lord over everyone how much better you are then everyone else in your “special” epics.

Then you haven’t been reading.

Also “casuals” is just the nice way saying scrubs.

Lol what?

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

I was in the middle of typing a warning that the brigade of angry players that claim to not even play anymore are about to pounce, alas they beat me to the punch while I was laughing at Chaaka falling all over himself. Unfortunately they got to you first

[Kakebuts-nathrezim]

I get that your job is to sell and polish this turd since your bosses think it’s a good design. Very few actually think WF/TF positives outweigh the huge negatives.

Blizzard, you need to better understand the people that actually still want to play your games before you lose even the most loyal supporters.

I understand where you’re coming from but I’m not sure if it’s possible for him to do his job without pushing back on ideas coming from the general discussion forum.

It’s very likely his job to speak on our behalf to help persuade devs who have put this system in place deliberately. Any compelling argument to make to the people internally who really believe in these systems should stand against some amount of scrutiny.

[Chaaka-stormscale (Chaaka)]

Falling over myself? I asked you a question and you responded with “lololol”.

Likely because you dont have an answer.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

That’s what’s called backpedaling. You asked me what the topic has to do with casuals when the guy I was responding to made a fallacious emotional appeal insinuating he respected casuals and that’s one of the reasons he wanted things to change. And then you stumbled backward trying to pretend you didn’t just make yourself look like a fool.

[Léhk-stormrage]

i take it youve never parsed over grey in any heroic raid encounter

[Chaaka-stormscale (Chaaka)]

the guy I was responding to made a fallacious emotional appeal insinuating he respected casuals

Ah, yes, you “respect” casuals and that’s why you want forging to have a cap. Ha!

These are your words.

you used “respect” in quotations to cast doubt on the sincerity of the word. You are the one shining a negative light on the term “casual”. Not Cyouskin.

[Bugfound-warsong]

Titanforging needs to go. It ruins the game.

[Masaichi-misha]

How so? I think plenty of people have laid out in this thread how it’s not only not ruining the game but it’s mostly a non-issue. Or it’s mostly a feeling issue. Previously I believe it was you that said that every casual is walking around in Mythic raid gear and quite frankly that isn’t true.

If you raid Mythic you are still going to have the best gear in the game. Titanforging, especially very high Titanforging doesn’t happen frequently enough that people are going to get a full set of Mythic level gear from not raiding Mythic. If you see someone that doesn’t raid Mythic and they’re pretty close to the ilevel of actual Mythic raiders it’s more likely from Mythic+ in which case the Mythic+ system is working as intended.

If you look at the armories of some of the top players in the world that took advantage of everything they could to have the best gear possible, more so than an average Heroic raider would have, they have maybe a piece of Heroic TF gear. Most of their gear is going to be from Mythic raids or Mythic+.

We don’t even see screenshots of maxxed out LFR/Normal gear often. It’s exceptionally rare.

Personally I enjoy it and if I still raided in any capacity I’d not mind it and would probably still enjoy it, but I’ve never been THAT obsessive about gear. Someone getting a nice piece of gear doesn’t hurt me or you or anyone in any way and it’s a nice little bonus for them. It really doesn’t devalue anything because they’re never going to be walking around with a full set of it. It’s probably one of my favorite features that they’ve added to WoW over the years.

If an issue exists in Mythic raiding where people feel that they’re never done or it’s not satisfying then maybe a change needs to be made within Mythic raiding only so as to fix the problem without disrupting the system for everyone else.

[anon60261020]

Personally I do enjoy when I get a good Warforge or Titanforge on something.

That’s like saying you enjoy winning the lottery. Of course you do; everyone does. What that doesn’t address is how heavily RNG-focused gearing is now.

[Whitecrow-khaz-modan (Whitecrow)]

But again, the reality is that we’re talking about hypotheticals here, not legitimate specific instances.

This isn’t hypothetical.
This isn’t said to argue a point but establish an acceptable fact.

Some players receive more than the average amount and degree of McForges.
While other players receive less than the average amount and degree of McForges.

This is how the system works.

people can’t even find a single player, right now, that’s 390 from doing only solo content

I don’t know who proposed those criteria “Show me a solo player of 390 to prove ??? about McForging”
But I don’t see what, if anything, finding such a player would provide proof of.
What does being a solo player have to do with McForging?

The basic premise of the system is to over-reward players.
E.g. You were supposed to get a 355 piece; here have a 370 instead.

This thread is long and going back 10 jumps in the conversation I was unable to gleam from the discussion the point to be made by demanding people find an ilvl 390 “solo” player.

Not to mention the loose criteria for disqualification “They are over 390 but ran a single M+2 !!!” just seems silly to argue about.

This is objectively wrong. WQ rewards do not scale up to 385. Emissary quests do.

You are arguing semantics and are being far from “objective”.
I believe it obvious that I was referring to the whole system, including the Emissaries, with the phrasing

It’s perfectly plausible for someone to reach very near 390 with just the WQ system alone. Considering the rewards are constantly positioned 5ilvl above the player’s current progress; up to a maximum of 385.

“The rewards” is a generalization for Rewards; which come from doing WQ’s. You complete emissaries, by doing WQ’s.
I am well aware that zone WQ’s stop at 360, normal dungeon WQ stop at 370, and Emissaries go to 385.

None of which making a distinction between matters in the grand scheme, because a 355 is capable of a McFroge just as a 370 or 385 can also McForge.

Does that clarify my position?

I don’t feel it does.

Why not remove McForging? What role is it really playing in this process?
All you did here was discuss the basic ilvl scaling of rewards and how you think it’s “great they (Solo players) have content they can do that lets them slowly level up to the range of a normal raider.” …

Make Emissaries scale to 390 instead of 385 and you get the same desired effect, even without McForging mucking things up.

Why not get rid of McForging?

[Dylamos-sargeras]

We don’t even see screenshots of maxxed out LFR/Normal gear often. It’s exceptionally rare.

Because no one cares enough to even post something that’s a net positive for them. There’s absolutely no way people will go out of their way to collect the data.

It really doesn’t devalue anything because they’re never going to be walking around with a full set of it. It’s probably one of my favorite features that they’ve added to WoW over the years.

It’s not something tangible that it devalues, it’s an RPG element that it’s wearing and tearing away at unnecessarily. If the argument is why does anyone care what an LFR or casual wears, the argument can also be presented as why do casuals or lfr raiders care about or need mythic level raiding gear?

I myself am a casual, this current TF system benefits me, but i don’t want to be given welfare. Earning things in MMO’s have always been a facet of the genre that I’ve enjoyed the most and provided an intangible soul that we’re losing because we want to provide people with things they don’t deserve but is a fake way of making someone feel good. It’s disingenuine and shallow, the MMORPG genre is dying we’re going to bleed it faster and self-entitlement is the reason why.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

This is how the system works.

That’s one spin on how the system works. You say it’s about over and under rewarding players. I see the base ilvl as the base ilvl. I see forges over that as a bonus. You’re a glass half empty guy. I’m a glass half full guy.

I don’t know who proposed those criteria “Show me a solo player of 390 to prove ???

The answer to this is easy, people opposed to forging keep talking about how there are lots of people out there with 390 (hell some even say 400+) ilvl from doing solo content. None of them can produce a single one. They’ve tried many times and it turns out they are being dishonest. In the overall it doesn’t mean anything. In context of this discussion it’s proof that some people aren’t intellectually honest about the topic. Nothing more or less. It’s a fun point to poke fun at people about though.

I believe it obvious that I was referring to the whole system, including the Emissaries, with the phrasing

It wasn’t. What you wrote was world quests. You didn’t say the system as a whole. Actually write what you mean instead of expecting people to be telepathic?

Why not remove McForging?

That’s another simple answer, I like it.

Why do you think that because you don’t like it it should be removed?

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

2744 posts and the thread still is in the majority where certain players try and offer valid points and reasoning about a system and the only rebuttal is “Proof!” “Doesn’t affect everyone” “It’s not common enough” “You can’t quantify skill” “Gear becomes irrelevant anyway” “Everything is hypothetical” “Hyperbole!!”.

None of the rebuttal has anything to do with this is why this is better.
It’s like the rebuttal of flat-earthers. It’s all made up and their opinion which isn’t backed up or justified is just right because it’s theirs. Everything that threatens to harm the integrity of their belief is either just plain wrong, made up, or a conspiracy.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

None of the rebuttal has anything to do with this is why this is better .

Many of us have explained why we think it’s better than not having forging. You just don’t agree with our opinions. Why troll like this?

[Oldnswole-tichondrius]

I totally agree, Bornakk probably has very little sway when it comes to core systems like AP and WF/TF. At the very least, hopefully, we can try to relay good, non-hyperbolic, feedback. Sometimes, the entire course the management has selected is one that isn’t conducive to real progress in a direction that is good for it’s existing customer base. I see it quite a bit in my industry. The inertia just takes over and runs the company in to the ground or it has to completely reinvent itself. Both scenarios are not optimal for the recovery of WoW, imo. As the customer base will not follow if they decide to focus more in, let’s say, mobile (last years Blizzcon announcement reaction sort of affirms that assertion)… for now until mobile gets as good as PC. I don’t believe it’s a sound strategy to diversify by sacrificing the good-will of your existing customers and expect to retain those customers. It seems to me they are worrying about the cart before the horse (loyal WoW customers being the horse). They will rely, financially, on us but not reward our loyalty with a product that has been up their previous level of quality. Their best dev’s are all on other projects. I get they might be bored, but when your “baby” is on life support, you might want to sure up the ship before your foundation disappears.

That being said, WoW has never looked better. The animations, zones, dungeons, and raids are all stunningly beautiful. I think they’ve forgotten why they vanquished every competitor. From my perspective, Blizzard had the “secret sauce” of MMORPG’s, then decided to fix what wasn’t really broken starting around WoD. I can remember when GW2, Rift, hell, every other MMO that launched late 2000’s. WoW was always more “crisp”. Crisp targetting, crisp movement, crisp feeling classes. Now, targetting is still good, movement is still good but the spec designs are just, for the most part, utterly boring and focus on the wrong things. Special synergy with certain classes, for me and my people, is what set WoW apart. Doing things things together, and having a “place” was very important to the group identity. Now there are literally too many viable specs and in doing that, the entire game has been dumbed down to a boring level.

Edit: Having every spec be viable is fine I guess if you can pull it off. They aren’t though, and to make it worse every xpac they upend the specs then plop a garbage AP grind linked to that character. At least let it be acct wide if you are going to potentially ruin people’s favorite specs every 2 years. If the metric they care most about is MAU’s (monthly active users), why would you not make AP account-wide? All they have done is reduce the number of fun and meaningful things to do in WoW by linking it to a character. It’s not MAC’s (monthly active characters). /shrug seems like a foolish way of going about their stated objectives.

It’s still salvageable, but may never happen while the CFO’s and their teams are at the reigns. I believe the only voice they will hear is one of monetary abstinance by us, the customers. Makes me sad is all.

I realize this is all just screaming in to the abyss that IS the WoW forums. They have a real signal-to-noise ratio problem and they are, in my opinion, concluding the incorrect ideas about their “experiments” with these core systems and how we interact with them.