Entire community? Really? Who are you counting as that entire community? A bunch of streamers who only play for views? Forum trolls who don’t even play anymore but love to troll threads like this one? And we all know who they are. The very vocal minority? Or are you counting the people who play the game that never say a word about it? I would really like to know who this entire community covers. Because I like the system! Anything that makes the phony leet snowflakes angry is a win win to me.
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Be careful, you are going to hurt feelings with words like that! ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
My 5 cents:
- WF and TF would work better if they had limits.
For example: imagine if WF = +5ilvl and TF = +10ilvl.
Result: that’s great, you can get a 390-395ilvl item from doing world content (which is a lot easier and less time consuming) but it will never trump your heroic/mythic quality gear.
M+ and Mythic raid will still have the highest possible gear sources and the casual Joe can still get a descent gear from casual content and be happy that it’s WF/TF.
Best rewards should always come from the hardest sources of content.
TF without a cap is as silly as if you got the ultra mega legendary weapon of legends from the 1st skeleton you killed on a RPG game.
That’s how dumb getting 425 ilvl gear from World quest is.
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If this is a game in its death knell, i would bet every single other game development company would love to be in a similar death knell… lets just, for the sake of poops and giggles, say they currently have 1 million active subs… thats $14,660,000… PER MONTH! Most game dev companies never see half that amount in the entire life of their product… you people constantly claiming the game is dead or dying are just clueless… Is it still enjoying 6 million active subs? Assuredly not, but by no stretch of the imagination is this game dead/dying… different? Yes… dead/dying? NOT EVEN CLOSE…
Wow during BC and into WOTLK had way over-inflated numbers due to the fact that NO other game dev company had as polished a game out in the market, so everyone played wow… a game with 1 million active subs is a major success by any metric.
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Perfectly Itemized is what many players want. I want to work on my character to make it as perfect as I can for the level of content i’m doing. Wf/TF and azerite gear make the gearing process disgusting and unenjoyable.
I like this.
WF at +5, TF at +10. Maybe dungeons and raids drop small amounts of a currency you can use to do the upgrades manually (like MoP). That way, getting lucky amounts to saving that currency to be used elsewhere.
Also, normal gear can never surpass heroic etc.
I must add that I think it’s strange that sockets are so random. I’d like permanent sockets to return (I really miss getting fully enchanted and gemmed up). I understand the idea of why gemming/enchanting everything was removed, so that we can immediately equip an upgrade…but honestly with how confusing some stat weights / azerite traits are these days I’m still not equipping right away.
Gemslots being random wf/tf procs isnt good either.
Imagine if rings and weapons could only be enchanted if an “enchantment slot” procced onto it? Thats how jcs feel.
Sorry, you cant use a flask tonight either because you didnt get lucky and wf your flask priveledges for this raid.
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Yeah, I’d like to see tertiary stats and sockets be guaranteed on specific pieces and not random procs.
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I have not been a fan of titanforging since its introduction so my viewpoint is probably a little bias so i guess temper your expectations. I raid with a guild that has returned to mythic this expansion and are doing pretty well (4/9M) on a 2x 3hr raid week. I do a lot of mythic+ dungeons and even try to dabble in some rated pvp (i suk) when i can find the time.
First let me start of by saying titanforging isn’t all bad, it opens up some good avenues for a certain subset of players. For other players or even just unlucky players it is a big source of frustration/jealousy.
Pros:
- chance for random upgrade, it always feels good to get an upgrade regardless of content
- helps players overcome the ilvl gates in LFG/LFR - sometimes you just get unlucky doing the content available and that bit of rng can be what helps push you into that new content zone (ie unlock raid-finder or go from normal dungeons->heroics)
- helps lucky people do more dps/hps/etc (sarcasm)
Cons:
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Damages “BiS” completion (in the time of obsessive simming) - The “Best in Slot” ideology only works for items at the max currently available ilvl. By making those “BiS” pieces pretty much impossible to get due to the layer of RNG players now have to work with “Best i can Get.” For example i could make a BIS list of items at mythic ilvl but i then get an item not in that list and it forges all the way to the max. If that item is an upgrade suddenly my stats are no longer “perfectly” balanced and i may need to change the rest of my gear to facilitate the change in stat distribution to maximize throughput. Perhaps that is a rather roundabout way of saying it but in the end what it means is “BiS” is no longer reasonably attainable so we will always be juggling gear around trying to min/max. Unless you are SUPER lucky a character will never be “Finished” in terms of “BiS” in a raid tier which is a feeling a lot of people used to seek and enjoy.
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Adds an additional layer of rng to the loot system - With mythic+ and WQs becoming a huge source of loot (rng based loot i might add) the second layer of forging rng makes it very difficult to get an item, or even a slot that you want. Since the Raids are really the only place where you can target farm raid-level-appropriate loot. It becomes frustrating if u get unlucky in the raid then do a bunch of other content trying to get a specific slot/item but can’t get it an ilvl that’s useful for you.
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Jealousy - Not a problem for everyone, but come on its the internet this is GOING to happen and its not new. I’m not sure if this is admisable as a real issue but there are a lot of people in this thread making points out of jealousy. Forging just introduces more potential points of conflict which can be amplified by which item gets forged (ie. dungeon pal A gets a 425 fuse and dungeon pal B gets a 425 versatility cloak that isn’t an upgrade feelsbadman). Jealousy is going to happen anywhere there is rng and I personally think that’s fine but its important to understand when you are introducing more points of frustration/jealousy.
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Combination with new loot system (player A gets item week one of raiding, then in week two, player A gets the same item again but +5ilvl - Player A can’t trade it off to player B despite owning the same item and it being a much bigger upgrade for player B)
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Introduces over-gearing at the lower difficulties (since the cap is so high if you are doing lots of low level content you have a shot to get loot that’s on par to mythic raid loot from doing anything in the game, i’ve already touched on the unfair/jealousy aspect but if you play the game a decent amount at any level you will inevitably out-gear the lower level difficulties regardless of your progress which i feel diminishes the victory)
My suggestions:
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There needs to be a forging cap so gear stays relevant to the content you are doing (like weapons!). This will solve a few issues in my eyes:
A)Players won’t feel the need to farm multiple difficulties of the raid for a chance at TF (reduce burnout), but still can see the benefit of forges farming their level of content
B)Jealous mythic raiders will now only be jealous of other mythic raiders
C)Should help keep players ilvl relevant to the content they enjoy and make the victories they get at that level feel more rewarding -
Provide an avenue for titanforging that doesn’t include rng, titan residium might lend itself well here as people collect their 415 azerite they will want to do something with their chalk, why not bring it to a titan-smith to upgrade an item! I realize that valor has had mixed results in the past by having a weekly cap and it has been stated that it felt like a required amount instead of the intended way of keeping the low-end players in the mix. Now that titan residium is already well regulated it seems like a good use for it (even if it took a boatload just to upgrade one item)
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Make items tradeable if the player already owns it (ignoring forges) ie. if i have a mythic paku trinket then get a mythic paku trinket + 5 it would sure be nice if i could help out and pass it to my pal who is still rocking and uldir trinket.
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Bornakk,
I get that your job is to sell and polish this turd since your bosses think it’s a good design. Very few actually think WF/TF positives outweigh the huge negatives.
I come from an industry, health care management, where our “customers” don’t really understand what they really need. You on the other hand, have a fully engaged customer base and still you don’t listen to them, then wonder why people are leaving your games. Sort of baffling to be honest.
We, in the other sectors of the corporatocracy, look at the tech industry to see how all customers will eventually communicate and organize against trends they do not like. It’s inevitable and the smarter corporations are already taking these new variables in to account by simply making a better product and being more agile to respond to customer trends. Blizzard, you are at the pointy end of the spear on this and you don’t even realize it. You are letting the finance people make too many important decions by chasing the “Fortnite” (insert next game that will fade in 1-2 years) group. Those kids aren’t going to play WoW. Blizzard, you need to better understand the people that actually still want to play your games before you lose even the most loyal supporters.
As for WoW. I’m 40 and I’ve been playing since literally release. I can say firmly, if TF/WF and any sort of end-game grind like artifact power is in the next expansion, me and my whole crew won’t be purchasing it. We always said, “Nothing will kill WoW, except Blizzard.” Sad times as that looks like it’s actually happening now.
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For me T & W/forging is like being part of a work team who have a task to complete with a specific bonus for the end result. Everyone contributes to the positive result but upon the point of remuneration the boss takes out a dice and rolls it for each employee ending with some people getting more for no discernibly good reason except the boss thinks this is a really cool system. Unsurprisingly, some of those who get the extra bonus think this is awesome, while others see the inherent unfairness of the system. Despite the seemingly straightforward issue of unfairness, the boss is invested in this idea and becomes blind to the fundamental problem, or wrongly thinks that the problem will balance out in the long run.
5 Likes
I had a Tarnished Sentinel’s Medallion from ToS titanforge to Antorus Heroic.
It was out performing other trinkets until I was gearing up after reaching 120.
It was exciting for a few days, but it didn’t take long to realize that the slot was basically locked for the rest of the expansion.
Same with my current belt. It titanforged to the current cap before I started raiding and doing any M+’s this season. It was a real treat knowing I’ve maxed a slot before even stepping foot in the new stuff.
I had a Mythic Seabreeze for a while. Replacing that Mythic Seabreeze with a Mythic Seabreeze that Warforged didn’t feel like an upgrade at all. It technically was, but it felt empty. The excitement was gone.
Same thing occurred once with a Trinket, got an 385 version and a day later a 390 of the same trinket. That isn’t fun. Ive stopped upgrading gear and discovering new things…at that point I’m just upgrading a number.
Blegh…Warforging just takes the wind from my sail. Short term excitement for long term boredom with no sense of achievement.
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I replied to your last post, curious your thoughts on it.
FWIW, they don’t do this (for Mythic at least) because it goes against the RPG element where “You earned your gear, you should be able to use it.” (PVP is a different beast.)
Itemization “is” an endgame. And “uncapped” Titanforging removes that needlessly. Personally, replacing “400 gear” with “400 gear with ideal stats” doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel good because I know there’s a decent chance I’ll replace that “400 ideal gear” with a “405+ gear with meh stats.”
We’ve had a discussion on this in the past, but I do hope systems designers can compromise on some elements of Titanforging. “Casuals” don’t need everything spoon-fed to them, I respect them more than that.
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Ah, yes, you “respect” casuals and that’s why you want forging removed. Ha!
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It’s almost like you’re suggesting a cap.
What does removing wf/tf have to do with how someone feels about “casuals”?
This discussion isnt about “casuals”.
That’s literally what he said. Maybe go back and try to read what you’re responding to. That might help with the context. Hell, I even quoted it.
We want a cap. Realistically WF/TF will never get removed.
And that changes my comment how?
Pretend it says:
Ah, yes, you “respect” casuals and that’s why you want forging to have a cap. Ha!
Stop being obtuse. You know the part I’m laughing at is his pretend care about casuals and his fallacious emotional appeal about how he “respects them more than that.”