Similar here. I’m 385 and I’ve only completed like 5 or 6 M+ this entire xpac and have one item equipped from M+ and I haven’t killed any raid bosses.
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The raid’s been out 6 weeks though. You didn’t have 386 ilvl at the start of the tier when it would have actually mattered what your gear level was if you wanted to do normal.
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Exactly.
Kal: “I haven’t even set foot in normal and now, 6 weeks later my average ilvl is higher than the gear that drops from normal!”
Me: “So what?”
Kal: “But that breaks progression!”
Me: “Were you ever intending to go into normal? Why didn’t you 6 weeks ago (or whenever you got high enough to contribute to a clear)?”
Kal: chirping crickets
Me: “No progression was broken because you had no intent to do normals anyways. And you’re not higher ilvl than people who have been doing normals for 6 weeks. What’s the problem?”
Kal: silence
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Apologies on the delay, got sidetracked by RL stuff.
I don’t see varying paths to progression as a problem unless those paths aren’t all inclusive (i.e. if raiding couldn’t get weapons or pvp couldn’t get azerite gear). If people want to engage in all paths to item progression, awesome, more power to them. That’s more time they’re spending playing.
For the same reason that gear earned raiding can be used in pvp and why that gear isn’t weaker in world/solo content. Gear is gear. You earn it one place it should function everywhere. Raiders don’t earn gear that is only good in raids, why should casual folks earn gear that’s only good in a portion of the game’s content?
I’ll be honest, I’m surprised they have 400 ilvl gear coming from warfronts or even weekly quests. It doesn’t upset me by any means but I wouldn’t be bothered if they reigned ilvl of content back a bit (to 385 or whatever normal ilvl is in upcoming content is at any given point). But limiting forging puts a sunset timer on content being valuable and I like and play more because it’s not capped.
Then you and I have vastly different experiences in vanilla. I leveled to cap on a pvp server in maybe a week and half. I was raiding inside of a month with a different guild (while I waited for the rest of my guild to catch up). Getting to cap wasn’t the game, being on the bleeding edge was. But that was a different day for me. I was curious because there are multiple people who claim they don’t play but are waiting for classic in this thread and it boggles my mind that people would spend so much time arguing about a game they don’t play when what they claim they want is on the horizon. In your case it seems you prefer the old progression philosophy and I was wondering how that weighed for you in context of the gameplay or other changes that have happened over the years.
Everybody is upset when something doesn’t WF/TF for them or when it does for somebody they feel is undeserving of good RNG.
Did you just call someone that really? Wow.
I urge people to actually go google the bolded term and see what pops up.
If i was to even link the definition of that term, i would be banned… and rightfully the ban would be warranted.
Of course you will say you never meant anything of it…because it is the whole idea of using that term… to avoid it being offensive… but it is a well known term. I would have a hard time believing that you do not know the meaning of that term. As such,… I would recommend please do not use the term again in any debate you are having with other posters. I don’t feel it is helping anything with your debate and letting people think that the term is ok because a mvp uses it. It would just incite more people to use that term. Almost everyone knows what that term means… (except you perhaps-is that your defense?)
With that said…
I would rather see the removal of the MVP system over the removal of the titanforging system in a heartbeat. No offense.
MVPs claim they do not represent neither the players or blizzard, so what is the point? Why is your opinion valued over others opinion?.. and when can we say that MVPs are using that green text to ultimately get what they want? When MVPs get to use that green text to constantly argue that certain systems in the game are trash (effectively trashtalking the game)or that players are receiving “welfare epics” that they don’t deserve etc… (effectively trash talking players) then there is an issue at hand.
Just my opinion.
P.S. There comes a point where you have to admit that this is a player vs player game. It was originally designed to have pvp aspects involved. Making players do mythic raiding or extra difficult content to have the proper tools or gear to successfully compete in said pvp interactions, is silly. Gating others from gaining proper gear to level the playing field in pvp is self centered. You may think that high level raiding is end game and is all what wow is about. I argue that pvp is end game and the entire premise of the game itself. Just because you enjoy raiding does not mean everyone should now raid. What is the point of getting the best gear in the game? to just be geared enough to go farm more gear? Nonsense. PVP is endgame. World of WARcraft… not World of Gearfarming.
You have admitted you used to sell runs in the past and I believe this is clouding your judgement on what is fair to gamers. People don’t like the thought of having to pay for gear from raiding nor spending months to get the gear. Also imo, soaking the playerbase making them pay for upgrades via carries after they pay for the game and a sub fee really hurts the game. Alternate sources of gearing is preferred by the casual playerbase and it should be available without resistance.
Thank god Blizzard sees this already. Making the game “raid hardcore or die” will just kill the playerbase.
So what someone gets a titanforge or higher il then your raids. You should be happy for them that you now have more power on your faction. Not telling someone “Hey you don’t deserve that gear, see you next tuesday.” How offensive.![:face_with_symbols_over_mouth:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/face_with_symbols_over_mouth.png?v=6" ":face_with_symbols_over_mouth:")
Being able to outgear what they consider to be the ultimate end game content at the entry level difficulty. Assuming 385 gear the only upgrades are for heroic or >+7 M+. So what was once the entry level difficulty which was normal or low keys is now heroic and mid-high keys.
Regardless of when they wanted to enter the raid they’ve invalidated a difficulty because of gear progression. The individual may not want/be able to cope with the additional mechanics and increased punishment from heroic but still wants to be able to progress as normal.
Everyone plays differently and has a different idea of how progression would be best suited to them, you just agreed to that idea but are trying to chew someone out for it again ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
Someone who is actually interested in progressing a raid would have given it a shot long before 6 weeks of warfronts and world questing got them 385 ilvl.
The entire point is that there should be alternate avenues to gearing other than raids or M+. It should be enough for you that it takes 6 times longer to get to 385 if you don’t raid.
Your real problem is not titanforging at all. It is that you don’t think people who don’t raid should be allowed to have gear at all.
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awesome reply~
And I wasn’t even trying to gear this alt of an alt when the raid came out. I only started gearing her seriously last week. About the only thing that I purposefully geared was when the 400 warfront quests came out. Which proves my point that you can get geared quickly and easily past Normal without really touching any difficult content whatsoever. And this isn’t the end of the tier either, it’s barely a month in.
Also, gear still matters if you want to do normal, in fact I’d argue it matters more since most pugs want higher i-levels to do normal than they did day one of the raid.
Ah, here we go. I was wondering if you’d bring this up. I don’t care about other people’s gear, I care about mine. This isn’t some conspiracy to keep the poor casuals down. What I care about is that my alts that have touched not a single difficult piece of content have individual pieces of gear higher than my main who has started pushing mythic. Nothing more, nothing less.
It is telling though how you jumped to “you just don’t want anyone to get gear!” when my point this entire thread was that it’s easy to gear up and completely invalidate an entire raid tier without really touching the raid.
RL sometimes stops people from raiding up to that point. If someone can’t commit to a raid schedule because of a month of finals in school
(arbitrary example) they then have to enter that raid/M+ tier late despite having engaged in other content up to that point. If they don’t want to do that higher difficulty or slowly learn their way up through base difficulty they get no reward from it. This is an internal problem for that particular type of player.
It’s great that you think so, it complements the way you play and it’s great that it works for you. Having said that, there is also more than 1 way of playing and what’s described above is just another scenario. Is that kind of player less valuable than another?
This has nothing to do with it. The only thing here is how the system impacts personal gameplay/progression experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I wasn’t replying to you though, not sure why you’re personally offended.
And this is exactly why catch up mechanics and alternative gearing methods exist. So that people who do have to stop playing for whatever reason don’t end up being locked out of content for the remainder of the expansion.
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Oh, I’m sorry, did you think I was offended? I just replied to the statement you made, I assure you, there was no offense taken. I just wanted it to be clear that not everyone who wants a cap put on titanforging wants to take away gear from others.
The guy I was replying to made it pretty clear that he was upset that people could reach that gear level at all, titanforging or not.
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Fair enough. I would also argue that making a tier’s progression essentially pointless after a month because someone wasn’t able to keep up for whatever reason is not good for the game either. And honestly, no one would be locked out of content for the remainder of the expansion. It would be more accurate to say until the next tier when higher level gear comes out. And that’s worst case, many people would just run content for better gear.
There has to be a middle ground that doesn’t swing the pendulum too wildly one way or the other.
Who are you speaking for? Because you’re not speaking for you. Where are these magical people that are actually upset that they now overgear normal because they wanted to progress through it but that didn’t do that? You know, the ones that logged in every day to do invasions and Emissary quests, to do warfronts and weekly quests, for weeks until they overgeared normal instead of just doing it and getting geared even faster.
Everyone plays different and has different ideas of how progression would be best suited to them, even the imaginary people in your head apparently. I’m not chewing anyone out for that idea. No one presented it as, “this is me, I wanted to, now I can’t, I’m so upset about it!” It’s always some nebulous other person that people are speaking for, about how it ruins that person’s experience. We’ve gotten a few, “but hey look at me! I’m overgearing normal now!” And not a single one of them actually had any intent to do normal raiding. And shockingly, they’re all alts of people who do lol.
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This is the middle ground. Want to run the content and gear faster and higher than you would otherwise? Awesome, go do it. Want to progress from solo world content slower but also lower ilvl than you would if you did organized group content? Cool, have at it. Everyone gets something to work towards at their own pace and desired time commitment and we end up with people at graduated levels of ilvls from mythic down to solo world content consumers.
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This issue is pretty simple.
Before TF/WF - If I run MC enough times, I’ll eventually see my Giantstalker drop and be able to collect the complete set.
After - TF and WF create a scenario where it’s virtually impossible to get the best gear.
- Does it drop: X%
- Does it WF: X%
- Does WF = ilevel, or gem slot, or ilevel and gem slot: X% each
- Does it TF: X%
- Does TF - ilevel AND gem slot: X%
It’s stupid, not necessary, and Blizzard knows exactly what they’re doing regarding a players dopamine hits. The bad luck protection they tout is as bad as feeding scratch-n-win players a line about how 1 in 10 wins or something equally ridiculous. IMO.
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Middle ground as in between two extremes. We’ve seen the one extreme (i.e. Vanilla where gearing was tedious), where was the extreme that dropped gear like candy then?
Personally, I’d like to see a cap on titanforging where you can only go up to the “next” level of difficulty. You still get a nice surprise once in a while, but you can’t win the RNG lottery with up to a potential 55+ i-level upgrade that breaks progression.