i like being heard, but i also like being listened to. not just cherry pick the easy arguments to work on and ignore the rest
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I agree it’s all opinion based. I was simply stating that that fact is no reason to dismiss all opposing arguments with blank statements while not actually refuting or supporting an opposing argument which a lot of this thread devolved into.
And it’s not necessarily one side either. Both stances on the argument have at times taken a similar approach.
I just believe that it makes more sense to discuss opinions rather than who’s opinions are able to be objectively proved with empirical data (hint none are)
To quote Carl Sagan “The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence”
If you can’t bring yourself to agree to something as basic as what an average is.
This discussion is not capable of moving forward.
This isn’t said to argue a point but establish an acceptable fact.
Some players receive more than the average amount and degree of McForges.
While other players receive less than the average amount and degree of McForges.
This is how the system works.
You are not reading what is being written.
And just jumping straight into making asinine judgments about poster’s views. It’s just insulting.
Under rewarding?
I never claimed McForging under rewarded players. I don’t think anyone has even used the phrase “under reward” in this thread other than you…
Actually write what I mean?
How about you put in some effort and read what people write.
Especially, when you plan to respond with “You didn’t say system” when it’s in the very section you quoted from…
Bloody heck, it’s like talking to a child.
Absolutely mad.
“I’m going to ignore the things you’ve written, and just pretend you have no reason to dislike the system you are offering criticism”
As if the last two posts didn’t provide concise but detailed explanation as to what I viewed as issues concerning McForging.
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I’d say you’re missing the point, but I don’t think you are. I think you’re intentionally ignoring it.
Up until you made the point in that post about “Casuals” don’t need everything spoon-fed to them, I respect them more than that. I had absolutely nothing to respond to. You have an opinion. You presented that opinion. It was clear, concise. And then you tacked that on, why? You describe the gear system as “spoon-fed” (an insultive emotional appeal) and simultaneously tout that you respect casuals too much. That’s not respect. In that moment you’re being condescending and insultive.
We’ve had many people that consider themselves casuals come in and explain why they like the current system. They get drowned out and insulted by you (and people like you) who tell them that they’re wrong, describe gameplay they like as “spoon fed” or “welfare epics”. You’re a mini version of, “you think you do, but you don’t!” I didn’t know condescending and being insulting to people you disagree with was respect.
You’re not fooling anyone. You’re here advocating a change to the status quo because it suits your interests. Because you certainly aren’t an advocate for people who play WoW casually and pretending it’s in their best interest is a joke at best.
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Where did I dispute what an average is? I addressed outliers. I addressed perception of forging. Hell, your entire diatribe is contrived rage at trivial and insignificant things that you intentionally take out of context. If there was confusion about a point instead of clarifying it you write a paragraph trying to insult me and then don’t even clarify what your point was. That pretty clearly demonstrates what your motives are. It’s not to engage in a dialogue.
I’m sorry, where in that rant about world quests did you say Emissaries? Oh, that’s right, you didn’t. But it’s cool. You go ahead and quote WQ system 5 times over, underline it, highlight it, and pretend that means anything at all. If you meant Emissary rewards you could have just typed that. You didn’t. It caused confusion. That’s on you, not me. And instead of saying, “oh yeah, you’re right, that’s what I was trying to say” you go on a diatribe about it.
If you’re going to flip out about me not reading what you wrote you might want to try to take some of your own advice. I didn’t ask you why you didn’t like forging. I asked you why you think that it should be removed because you don’t like it. It’s a nuanced difference. I didn’t disregard your posts detailing why you don’t like forging, they simply had absolutely nothing to do with my question. Care to try again?
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Find me that post where I insulted casuals players. Spoon-feeding implies the system is babying them – something I find insulting. Welfare epics are exactly that – hand-outs. Warfont caches containing 400 ilvl gear is an example of a welfare epic. It’s a reward that isn’t justified by level of effort and difficulty compared to other 400 item level sources.
“Respecting them too much” – of course. I think they’re perfectly capable of enjoying the game without being spoon-fed welfare epics to keep them paying each month. They should have a plentiful amount of content that fits a wide range of players.
Trying to keep them subbed by offering amazing rewards instead of offering them amazing content – Yes, I find that insulting. They deserve more content that’s focused on making their endgame enjoyable. Giving them 400 gear just makes the World Quests drops they’ve been hoping for less desirable. Giving them huge Titanforges once an expansion… does what for them? Nothing? It’s nice to get, but what’s the point? Make the content even easier than before? You’ll fall straight into the trap that made leveling incredibly boring.
WoW doesn’t need to baby its largest group of players. They aren’t scrubs. They just play for fun. Getting gear clearly isn’t their endgame (if they wanted better gear, they should go into Mythic+ and Raids, ya?). The rewards system should reflect that. Titanforging (big bonuses) does not reflect that. It’s too rare to have an impact. So instead, they keep them paying with a couple huge items each months – items that instantly devalue their preferred content.
And that, in my opinion, is stupid.
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This. God so much this…
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Cata heroics and Ghostcrawler leaving beg to differ, WOW playerbase have always been garbage.
I guess the whole discussion is lost on you then.
Detailing what you like and don’t like about the system is the whole point.
There is no nuance to your question. You are just assuming the answer, in the asking.
“I asked you why you think it should be removed because you don’t like it.”
That simply is not what I think.
I think McForging largely undermines the game’s base reward structure.
I believe an ilvl 380 item coming out of a random Heroic Dungeon should not be possible.
Is removal of the system required to address those issues?
Clearly, those issues can be addressed in ways other than removal.
Such as with a cap or limitations, much like the original implementation of Thunderforging.
I think I was pretty clear. When you refer to the systems that way you’re not just insulting the system. You’re insulting everyone who likes the system.
That says everything that needs be said. Try taking the blue advice we were given. Stop talking about what makes the game less enjoyable for other people. Stop talking about what is insulting to them. Stop talking about what makes the game boring for them. You speak for you. Just you. No one else. And every single casual player who tried to express otherwise you and your ilk spam posted/insulted them out of the thread. There are dozens and dozens of examples of this right here in this thread.
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Uh, I didn’t assume the answer in the asking, I responded to your specific question…
Did you forget what you asked me in your attempt to look down your nose at me and pretend you’re an intellectual? lol. Too good. But I was leading you to what I thought was an obvious and simple answer. Don’t worry. I’m not gonna go off on a diatribe of quoting where I sequentially bold and then underline and I remove words from the repeated text like you did earlier. My point was just that your opinion is just that, an opinion. All the reasons you dislike forging? Subjective. That’s not any more of a valid reason to keep it than the opinions of people who like it. So you ask, “why not remove it?” and I answered, “why do you think because you dislike it that we should remove it?” Make sense now?
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If I think a politician’s speech is insulting, am I insulting the people who liked their speech? No, I’m not.
I’m still waiting for an example where I personally called out people who like Titanforging and insulted them.
Hint: I did not.
You are incapable of having a discussion. You don’t even try to defend your stance. You’ve wasted enough of my time.
You have nothing more to add to this discussion. Find the next thread to derail please.
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That’s exactly what I mean. And your response is telling. Someone tells you they find something insulting and you try to convince them that they are wrong. You’re not interested in their point of view. You’re interested in defending your right to be what you know other people perceive as insulting. But your example is silly anyways. You’re not simply saying, “I find that insulting” you’re intentionally being derogatory in the process by throwing out “welfare” and “spoonfeeding”. And let’s be honest here, in your examples you tried to explain how other people felt, not how you felt. So you’re saying it’s insulting to other people. Those other people are saying, “hey, I don’t think that’s insulting” and your response is, “you are wrong, it is insulting to you because I said so.” I could go on. There’s not really any point. You don’t want to understand.
You’re more than capable of simply not responding to me and/or ignoring me if you aren’t interested in a discussion. That’s your prerogative. But it’s not yours to tell me where and when I can post. Thanks.
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Yep it is.
Your projecting your own negative connotations upon those words. Those words have been used for a long time and are generally accepted vernacular when discussing these systems. Cyous has specifically clarified his meaning when he uses those words. To ignore his specific definitions and choose to instead use your own definitions with your own projected negative connotations is the definition of choosing to be offended.
If your going to be logically consistent in any sense of this part of the conversation, then look at Cyous on the whole. He’s provided loads of guides and gave metric craptons of feed back for the balance rotation prior to BfA launch immeasurably improving the boomy gameplay experience.
To imply that he hates casuals and sees them as beneath him is just… It’s just so wrong on so many levels. Actual elitist literally don’t care about the players they see as beneath them. They don’t even talk to them. They certainly don’t provide guides and WAs for them.
Sorry dude, but you’re just completely off base on this part of the conversation.
Personally, I also find it sorta insulting that instead of providing casual players with better content to keep them playing… they just dangle heroic and mythic level rewards on RNG carrot sticks. Seems like a massive cop out to me. And a very short sighted one at that.
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This would be great if you didn’t make secondary stats worth so much more than main stat. Unfortunately you guys have not figured out how to achieve this, even though it was mentioned as one of your goals going into BFA.
Reaching level 100 here
I’m not simply projecting my own negative connotations upon those words. Look at this thread. Look at the other thread where someone is complaining they got a 60 ilvl forge from a world quest that the base was 360. Search for “lazy”, “welfare”, “deserve”. I can point you to many examples where those words, and others, were used derogatorily. I can point you at other people who feel exactly the way I do who posted so in this thread.
Edit: Just for good measure I hopped over to the other thread and this is in the last post as of me editing this, and this isn’t uncommon at all and it’s not counting all the crap that the mods delete:
I’m looking at him in context of the discussion we’re having. Clearly he’s got a bit of an ego, hell he threw out in the middle of this…
So am I off base? Sure, it’s possible. But I’m not going to give him a pass because he writes guides or gives spec feedback. I’m not going to give him a pass because he’s “objectively one of the best players in the world”. In the end, his opinion is just that, an opinion. It carries no more weight than your opinion or my opinion. Unless he suddenly became a systems developer (according to him) and the forums haven’t updated.
The only people that magically find it insulting are people who aren’t actually casuals. So how bout we let them speak for themselves. More than a few have done so in this thread and none of them mentioned that. Hrm…wonder why.
It’s an absolutely terrible system and Blizzard has too much pride to admit / change it.
It can be pretty tough, all things considered. WoW’s combat is very volatile, and secondary stats bring more value to other secondary stats (this is why you never see stats go up in value as you get more of it – for example: Enchanting a ring with Haste will reduce the relative value of Haste for your next Ring -Haste enchant).
Blizzard retunes class/spec damage each tier to compensate for the shift in stats. Some specs simply get better scale factors. And encounter design plays a part in this discussion too.