I didn’t do MoP challenge modes (I sat out most of MoP), but I did do Legion’s Mage Tower for several specs and I must admit that that Mage Tower was much more motivating than M+ has ever been. The cosmetic reward was a big factor, but another big plus is that it let me practice it and get better without potential of upsetting or annoying anybody else.
Agree that time limits breed extreme toxicity
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Completely wrong. They are almost entirely tied to skill. Sure, gear helps. But skill is a much larger factor in how high you will go.
How am I supposed to know that you are good at your class?
This is so you can’t skip the entire dungeon, which would be pretty easy to do otherwise.
?
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Raider io score is only based off your best score in each dungen. Perfect for someone who is skilled but doesn’t want to farm heaps of dungens. Do one big one in each dungen and boom you get invited to any group you like.
I agree completely it would be nice if there were cosmetic rewards for things like keystone master. Maybe a mount based of the seasonal affix so some undead mount this season and something naga based next season for timing all 15s.
No we are not obviously challenged enough, it’s that the timer doesn’t allow this playstyle. In this case we could run a timed dungeon successfully, it’s just not fun to rush through and ignore socialization or breaks or play around without bulling through the whole thing. If you read the OP it’s that the timer method isn’t fun for some people, not that they don’t have the skill to do a timed run.
had nothing todo with peoples time. it’s just a copy/paste from diablo. it gave dungeons so much more life. before, you would finish a heroic and that would that. you had almost 0 reason to ever return. in wrath, they at least wrapped in some weekly quests around doing dungeons, but even that wore off after awhile. M+ has made a small amount of content much more functional.
when people say they don’t like M+ and talk about the olddd days… well there was nothing good about them even in the old days. once you were done getting that gear there was ZERO reason to return.
The ol “I am good enough to do it, I just choose not to ever do it” defense.
“I am not challenged enough, I just refuse to do things that actually challenge me”
M+ is the first time 5 man content remained a challenge in WoW’s history, and the timer is the biggest reason why. It forces you to actually play your role well. Remove the timer, you don’t have to play your role well to complete the content.
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That’s completely false. I can’t even guess how many times I had to run dungeons for rep so our tank could get a shield upgrade, or someone else in the team needed rep for w/e or still hadn’t gotten something they needed.
You must have started late.
this is the key part so many just gloss over.
there is 0 skill involved in slowly crawling through a dungeon, painstakingly CC’ing every mob. sheep square, sap moon… fight them one at a time, wait on CD’s in between, etc…that’s not skill.
rolling up to a group, knowing what they do, popping off cc (when necessary), being able to respond to a group of 4-5 mobs doing 2-3 different, dangerous things, all the while quickly killing the group (differently, depending on the affix) takes far, far more skill and knowledge of the dungeon and your class than the slow crawl.
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I did choose to do it and didn’t like it. I ran it a whole bunch at the start of Legion and was very successful with it but it simply wasn’t fun despite trying to get into it since I really like traditional dungeons.
Right now the hardest content for people who like the traditional slow dungeon experience is m0 which you should know is not a challenge since they don’t scale up without involving a timer. They could add this scaling dungeon without the timer and knock the rewards down so you literally have no reason to complain about people wanting to have fun.
If this was less rewarding to account for the lack of timer this should appease you but you try to twist this into thinking it’s about skill. Timer. Is. Not. Fun.
I am not complaining about you wanting to have fun. I feel like you are deliberately ignoring my words.
If you want the key to upgrade, there needs to be a certain level of “I played my role well” required. Removing the timer removes the requirement to play your role well, and I have not seen suggestions on how to keep the requirement.
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You would be accepting a loot penalty of having less ilvl gear to have the key upgrade on the final boss kill. This is a fair trade considering you can do a non-timed run and get just as good loot as a timed run so this should reward even more accurately than it is now while letting people play how they want.
Saying that timers are the only way to test skill is such a ridiculous statement. Other challenging rpg games have no timers and are known to take skill, other content in WoW is challenging and has no timer. A noob team can’t walk into a m+20 and just beat the last boss because a timer is absent. The lower ilvl reward would account for the lack of timer and this should be something you can easily accept considering you can already do these runs in the current game they are just a hassle to start.
How about instead of upgrading, the key just remains the same?
One thing some seem to do is think that without a timer, people will just CC everything and have zero challenge. One thing to keep in mind is there are those that, even if they hate the timer, they still have a limited amount of time to play or are still looking to gear up efficiently. Yeah, there might be those that want to wipe 500 times and take 10 hours for one dungeon but others, like me, would be satisfied if we did not take a hit to anything, aside from maybe a lower ilvl drop, for just missing the timer due to say one DPS failing to interupt or people not following boss mechanics.
In someways, the timer provides the challenge as there are those that see the timer and see it as something to beat, this leads them to make mistakes and too many mistakes means timer is blown. In order to make the timer, one often has to keep a cool head and pay attention. In addition to letting each role do their job. Some affixes are NASTY if one over pulls/kills (Bolstering and Bursting key examples) yet some DPS, in an effort to make time, might pull extra and add the danger stacks causing the group to wipe.
It would need to upgrade or else you would just be doing timed runs anyway just like it is now to progress it. Or maybe it only upgrades if you didn’t die a certain amount of times but I think even something like this would make people have toxic reactions similar to how a timer does.
At least if the key remained the same, they could be used for practice/gear till one is ready for the timed of that level. This at least keeps the timed being needed to upgrade but also gives ones that are concerned or intimidated by the timer a way to improve/ease in to M+.
You can still lower a keystones level so that wouldn’t be necessary for practice/gear, people likely wouldn’t overextend past what they can handle since you are rewarded upon completion and they would have to do something a lot higher to even match a timed run. Problem with not having it upgrade would mean the system is not really different than how it is now, you would still be doing majority of timed runs which is what people don’t want to do.
been playing since bc. rep wasn’t a reason enough for the majority of people.
Unfortunately, the hard heads keep seeing “we want timer less runs” as “we want gear handed to us”. They can’t seem to get that there can be a challenge without the timer, often citing CC and waiting for cooldowns as reasons why, well, here are a couple of things they overlook:
- CCs have limits on targets, max possible would be 5 and that is only if each pull in a dungeon is susceptible to a CC everyone in the group has, which is only possible if one plans the group exactly for CC based on the dungeon, and even that disregards mobs that are immune to CC…
- Not everyone will wait for CDs, it is one thing if it is lesser CDs, but even in untimed runs, people likely would prefer to keep moving.
If they want counters to CC, why not an affix that makes mobs resistant/immune to CC, if x amount of CC is used all CC breaks or mobs get a boost in health/damage/etc if CCd.
Those of us that want a timer less version want true challenge in our content, not artificial challenge like timers provide. If nothing else, maybe instead of a timer to score, one only has x amount of time to complete before the dungeon kicks them out, and this could easily be current timer x2 or x3. They could even re-institute a timer like was used for the bear runs in ZA where the timer did not technically exist but if one was fast enough, they got better rewards or cosmetics.
There are many ways a timer less system could work, lower reward, higher challenge, cosmetics, etc. Ideally, a timerless system would allow for one to do multiples, if they wish, just not as fast as the speed runners.
You could totally cheese it to push your key and get higher loot at the end of the week by finishing up with a higher, timed key. If this were to be an option I don’t think you should be able to switch to a timed run from a key that was acquired in a non-timed dungeon. I’m sure there would be ways to cheese the ilevel loot too if it increases with the key level the way M+ does now.
Yea I think having them as separate types of keys would be the best way to avoid that.