Thoughts on the paladin tree revamp now that we've had it for a while

Classes Paladin
1

I tried Stand Against Evil against the second boss of Necrotic Wake. Felt bad to spend 2 points on it, as expected. What was even worse though was that the range for it to chain to additional targets was so small that it only hit one. I think a better design would be that it changes Turn Evil to a frontal cone like Searing Glare or Light of Dawn.

Stoicism is only useful in PvP, but I think that’s okay because it doesn’t block any PvE pathing. It is, however, blocked itself by Lead the Charge. This makes it inaccessible in all but the most extreme situations (against a Sub Rogue) because you have to shift two points to get it. Same as with Turn Evil’s follow-ups, situational talents should only cost one point, but Stoicism effectively costs two.

Divine Spurs is a big issue. Steed of Liberty doesn’t work without it, but it’s too penalizing, not beneficial enough, and shouldn’t require an additional talent point. Buff it and roll it into Steed of Liberty, and then move Lead the Charge to its old spot.

A Just Reward is terrible, as expected.

Holy Reprieve: this really exists for when two paladins are present, but then I have to hope the other paladin takes it as well or else there wasn’t enough justification in my taking it. My talent build being tied to someone else’s feels bad; it’s a paladin tax that my fellow paladins in Solo Shuffle don’t seem willing to pay. It might go down a little smoother if it reduced both Forbearance applied by me and Forbearance applied to me (no double dipping).

Divine Reach is inaccessible in PvP builds because neither Holy Reprieve nor Obduracy are taken in PvP. Not saying we would take Divine Reach, but the option isn’t even there. (edit: I thought Divine Reach and Aura of Reckoning might have decent synergy in Blitz, but the latter’s tooltip reads “40 yd range.” Dunno what’s up with this because it should just apply to everyone in your aura.)

Imp BoP is only useful for Holy PvP.

Faith’s Armor is only useful for Prot.

Worthy Sacrifice is terrible, as expected.

I like Righteous Protection.

Holy Ritual is terrible, as expected.

Seal of the Crusader is amazing for Ret, totally unexpected.

Eye for an Eye should trigger from magic damage at the baseline. I don’t understand why this was separated out into a PvP talent. Yes, we could use a couple new PvP talents, but no, this was not the way to do it.

Selfless Healer is disappointing for Ret. I thought the numbers were generous if anything, but it doesn’t feel worth the investment. Maybe it would be in PvP if Ret had a smaller negative PvP modifier on FoL.

Golden Path should heal for more, but a maximum of three targets.

I love Light’s Revocation.

So, anyone else have thoughts on the revamp, now that we’ve had some time to play it?

2

It’s… ehh

There’s really only a few good changes that you’ve already outlined. I certainly don’t feel like a “Support Healer”(What do we think about Ret becoming a "support healer" in 11.0.5?) even though my overall HPS went up as Ret. I wanted things like Judgement of Light, SotC, Golden Path to be more accessible and more powerful to turn trickle healing into a tiny babbling brook of healing.

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3

Nothing worth mentioning other than the qol of being able to divine shield in forb. Thats it.

I kept saying this new tree wasnt the fix to all the clsss issues and that it was undertuned as hell. I remain correct

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They’d be a little more accessible if Vengeful Wrath only cost one point. JoL could be a little stronger. Golden Path is so weak that it may as well be rolled into Consecrated Ground. But this seems to be where the devs want Ret healing to be considering the Lightforged Blessing buff was reverted at the last minute, and SotC and JoL heal for less than than their tooltips. I think I heal for around 200k hps in a m+ run, which is certainly something, but at the same time it’s disappointing when so much of the tree is designed around it.

I feel that we’re missing a real Divine Steed utility talent (Lead the Charge is garbage and I hate the design), more could be done with BoP, A Just Reward should buff Cleanse substantially, etc.

Empyreal Ward is nice as well, but I agree that there are some severely undertuned talents, most importantly Divine Spurs / Steed of Liberty.

5

For pvp, I think 5 of the utility talents I want, cannot be gotten without sacrificing my own damage. Loh having an armor bonus is cool, Divine Shield providing a heal, potentially 30% of max hp, and ignoring Forbearance is useful. A lot of the other cool new things are just not mathematically better than what we must take to do average damage.

6

I’m 100% certain this is a bug with CSAA proccing multiple appliacations in AoE scenaro’s. It’s reading procs baised on damage appliacations instead of cast. The same issue is present in EP from both TS/CSAA procs. This might be due to blessed champion effecting judgement’s debuff being inherited to CS skills.

It’s the same base co-effecient as consecration. And honestly, consecration should itself, do more then just 5% of our AP in anything! Such a low co-effecient makes it scale poorly.

7

Man, I really hope not.

Seal of the Crusader combined with our other new class talents give me insane self-healing. Out of the 3 dps in M+, I’m always ahead in self-sustain by a noticeable margin.

Healers should be loving us.

8

Honsetly, I feel that some of the talents are so weak that they never become even situational, losing their spot to mandatory ones. Like 20 sec forb, increased range for auras should be baseline. In pvp we still have problems with spenders hitting like wet noodle. Justicar’s veng is never taken, lots of pvp template nerfs that need to go.

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9

Overall, I like it better than the last tree we had. You don’t feel as pigeonholed into taking a cookie cutter build. You can move things around a bit and experiment.

As a pvp’er, being able to bubble during forbearance is huge. It’s also nice that you can reduce forbearance length too. Lay on Hands ignoring healing reduction effects is nice.
A bit of residual healing for teammates is nice.

There are other talents in the tree that look interesting but you can’t really reach them unless you’re willing to sacrifice damage, which is something you should never do.

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10

I don’t think it’s a bug because AoW works the same way and Blessed Champion cleaves JoL. Basically the whole spec would have to be bugged, and “fixing” it would make the spec way less fun and effective.

I don’t use Vengeful Wrath in m+. It’s what, half a percent of ST DPS? I’d rather spend those points on SotC and heal for 15% of the healer’s HPS.

11

With the new tree, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m specced in both.

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12

Oh yea, you could do that, but it’s hard when you need Cleanse. I guess you could give up 1-min Sac as well.

It seems I was exaggerating about SotC, btw, it’s probably more like 5-10% of a healer’s HPS by itself. I still think it’s a very good talent. Wish they’d buff up Holy Ritual though.

13

Why would you have to give those up? :thinking:

I have Vengeful Wrath, SotC, Cleanse, and 1 min Sac. The new tree is very forgiving.

It’s an absolutely excellent talent. I gave up my Templar Strikes just so that I could pick it up. With SotC and other talents, my self-sustain always out-performs the other two dps in M+ by a noticeable margin.

14

Oh okay, then it must be the flex point I’ve been moving around into JoL, Blessed Calling, Consecrated Ground, and Righteous Protection. I just find Vengeful Wrath so garbage in m+, especially as Templar. Maybe as Herald and on Void Emissary weeks, lol.

I also like pathing through Selfless Healer. I know it’s bad but I like the mechanic. Most of the penultimate row could use some work, actually.

15

I like Selfless Healer. I’ve saved a couple of potential wipes with a huge FoL on someone and a nice bonus for myself. Big fan of that talent.

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16

Hm, yea, I wouldn’t call it useless, but a “huge” FoL is nothing compared to a huge WoG, right? Which makes sense considering WoG costs holy power, but still, FoL is tuned too low. Almost all the top Rets in m+ take Guided Prayer instead of Light’s Celerity, and they skip Selfless Healer. In PvP, Light’s Celerity sees some use (less than Guided Prayer), but Selfless Healer is once again skipped.

FoL is a fun spell that takes skill to use at the right moment, and so I think it’s a shame that the more passive options are higher value. Not saying passive options should be lower value, but they certainly shouldn’t be higher. Maybe Healing Hands, which is already mandatory / a cornerstone of Ret, could also increase FoL’s healing by up to 50%.

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17

I guess it really depends on the scenario. Casting a FoL on a tank with increased healing pays dividends if everyone is behind but it does pale in comparison to a Wing’s up WoG in PvE.

I noticed that. I tried using it a couple of times but I wasn’t impressed by it at all. It’s not an effective Cheat Death. I’d rather have Light’s Celerity + Selfless Healer but it’s a playstyle thing. I like doing lots of offhealing in stressful situations.

I’d be down for this. I like having powerful offhealing. I’d also be down to somehow reintroduce WoD’s WoG back, replacing something rather spammable with more powerful, smart healing limited by charges and a medium CD.

18

I find FoL pretty weak on the tank, like it barely moves their health bar. It seems more effective on DPS / the healer.

I don’t like Guided Prayer either, but it’s gotta be decent in PvE where WoG and Healing Hands aren’t nerfed by about 50% each. I agree it’s a playstyle thing, but with the caveat that one playstyle is stronger than the other.

I agree Legion WoG was a cool ability. Arahgon made a suggestion I liked that it should replace Afterimage (for Ret only) and be an alternative to Healing Hands. That way it can be strong because we have to give up something strong for it. It’s this sort of choice I want to see more of in our tree. There’s too much filler and straight dead talents.