Not sure what Blizzard can do about it. Making all character data private would kill apps like Raiderio, but people would just start demanding people link their Keystone Master achievement for joining a +8. Honestly, the community is so demented at this point in terms of their elitism I don’t think you design your way out of this problem unless you make any content with a tangible player power reward of negligible difficulty so they can’t even use ilvl to discriminate anymore, but that goes against the spirit of the MMORPG.
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I think we’re at the middle ground now.
I just refuse that going farther – that 1-DPS classes have a free pass to be relatively stronger than All-DPS class options in the DPS role – is a defensible position. If it happens, COOL. If it doesn’t, well, it really probably shouldn’t if class niche is real or matters.
And exactly to your point, people who enjoy Monk typically want the damage to mirror how cool they feel playing it. Monk damage is not “non-existent” because they can’t abuse/exploit bugs to achieve extreme levels of burst. Further, they don’t do less damage than they did during the World First run, in which top damage for Sire Denathrius was a WW Monk.
To be really clear: WW went from 5.7k avg parse in 9.0 to 5.5k avg parse in the first few days of 9.0.5. They are not suddenly “trash tier”.
What I can agree with, wizards have been too powerful, as a general measure, since we lost Artifact Weapons in Legion.
I never said they were trash tier. They’re entirely fine at worst. Many people are over reacting in a significant way. My main gripe is QoL issues that we were allowed to normalize before swapping in the middle of the season.
I also never said hybrid classes are a free pass to a consistent OP. I don’t think they should be allowed to be below-average, however. Lock/Mage/Rogue/Hunter consistently have 1-2 specs above average with one being god tier. This phenomenon is most likely why we see WW being hilariously underrepresented even when average-strong, because people may not want to invest in a class that at any minute can hit a pot hole into the black hole of irrelevancy
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Eh somewhat agreed, but this gives a hard pass on the problem and is in itself an elitist take. Denying the problem as fixable just makes it persist. Rio, etc may either demand better in game tuning (which were not getting), less power (ie not possible - which would enflame the hardcore base), or alternate methods (see solo queue conversation, etc)
Haha, I played Monk in BFA. I get it. (And MoP into WoD – the mastery change made me die inside).
The problem with WW was and continues to be combat design. Everything outside of combat feels great. But from summoning pets to being unable to interrupt while channeling FoF, so much is left wanting.
Subtlety Rogue, Arms Warrior, and Survival Hunter are so far below average, they’re pulling down the curve. If anything needs fixed, it’s there. But Blizzard Devs couldn’t solve Sub for over five years now…
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No idea what to do with arms to keep it pve/pvp balanced aside from a PvP modifier like WW. Should prob consider it cause yeah it’s super saiyan in PvP and krillin in pve
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What I said in my initial argument was that they should AT MINIMUM be average, and never at the bottom. It’s not the same as a free pass for being stronger than other all-dps options as you claimed.
I’ve also never said Monks were suddenly trash tier. They are still performing well and are fun to play, although less fun with MotC changes.
My main complaint about WW is FoF is weak. It needs a buff to its damage and no more 50% damage to secondary targets bs. It’d would be great if it applied MotC or if MotC was removed entirely and SCK balanced around it. It’d be great to have WDP baseline and maybe replace SEF with Serenity if SEF can’t be made to work properly.
I don’t expect all of these changes to happen at the same time, or maybe happen at all. They also don’t instantly move WWs to the top spot, so it’s not like I’m asking to be OP here.
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Sorry! I misunderstood.
The problem with “average” is “on what scale”. If you line up the 24 damage specs, half will be “below average”. Monk parsing at 5.5k is at the lower end, but with Q3 being 5.8k, is it really terribly imbalanced?
Balance Druids and Affliction Warlocks are really outliers at 6.2k. With only Fire and Ele Sham at 5.9k averages above Q3…
*All my figures are Denathrius, which is my benchmark. We can slide the goalposts if you want, but should keeps apples to apples.
I’d wait at least 2 weeks to make that claim, but the fact that Blizzard rolled those changes in the middle of a patch while there are specs that are absolutely demolishing everything like Balance and Fire is what irks me the most. Affliction is super strong in raids, but they aren’t great in M+ while the other 2 are at the top of both.
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When M0 was top tier, my 184 Prot warrior was 100 -> 0 by a fire mage, thru defensives and reflect. I watched Stoopz talk about “we shouldn’t be pushing to nerf top performing…” and I instantly said “forget that - Nerf Fire. This is ludicrous.”
I’m now ready to say the same for Balance… The difference being Fire has been S tier for 4 consecutive patches.
I felt the same way too. I finally got around to pugging some 12s last night and was very surprised to see the numbers being better than what I expected.
In smooth runs at higher keys, I‘ve seen about 10-15% loss at the end of the dungeon. Really isn’t too bad. Not as good as before, but enough to top keys still.
The major difference is the burst aoe. I was able to burst ~25k or more in aoe without prideful in 9.0, and it’s closer to 18-19k now. There is definitley more ramp up time then last patch.
Again though, still more than fine and even strong.
The difference to me is monks have been bottom top middle class teir through the years. Now the kind of people who play monk are usually calm cheerful, don’t piss us off or we going to raise hell til we calm back to our happy monk mood. I let forums make my decision on switching from brew to wind. Im glad i did cause i can understand the gripe from dps. Today since about a 2 months ago i played my brew and all my love for them came pouring in i even switch my covenant for necro to kyrina. I loved playing monk back in mop i raged quit for 2 years because of Wod which cost me my 7 10 year of grinds account. I restarted back in Aug 2019 and love legion and sl bfa was egh. Sorry old wandering story sickness. This update show me one thing blizzard is start to get balancing class more over specs down. Brew wind need small some defense abilities added. Wind they need to consolidate some buttons. Our focus should be on our mist spec they got a terrible roll ive seen this first hand glad yall calm down but send that monk rage toward fixing mist.
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This is hard to follow my friend
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BFA WW was annoying filth that played sround a gimmick that should never have gotten out of beta.
You even suggesting it is better than SL version shows how little you understand the class.
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i play monk because I enjoy it. I’ve played this class through the last 2 expansions and monks were meh. This crap was over the top. Killed it for me. I have ZERO desire to play at all right now.
Yea mb I didnt clarify that I havent played sl monk that much yet. It just seemed boring to me since its just button mashing but thats every other class rn, gonna try monk again this week.
Why though? Did it change the gameplay that much that you no longer enjoy it?
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Comments on something when they haven’t tried it.
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It was a qol loss, but ww is still great and very fun. I was a doomsayer going into 9.0.5, but it really did not turn out nearly as bad as I thought it was going to. The fix to dance of chi ji helped a lot with regards to damage lost from bug fixes.
Just gotta tab target a lot more often now.
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Yeah, I’m still hopeful 9.1 will address this spec somehow. It’s not all fine and dandy since it was a “fun nerf” rather than a damage nerf for the most part, but the WWs aren’t suddenly trash tier because of it, even if they need to be looked at some.
The most frustrating part of this nerf imho was that it came in the middle of a tier, where most people are still progressing. I’d have imagined Blizzard would’ve waited until 9.1 to do something like this, but oh well.
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