I’m so tired of Monks being treated like the bastard class of WoW. I’ve played since the start, I can’t stomach leveling and gearing another class that can be nerfed on a whim. Monks are by far the most fun class to play. We were actually competing with high dps classes in pve. I guess this couldn’t be tolerated.
Count me as another unsatisfied customer…like Blizzard cares.
I’m canceling my sub.
Peace!
THE FINAL STRAW! NO MORE STRAWS AFTER THIS!
If raw numbers are the only thing you desire in a class then you can’t really be upset when the singular class you leveled isn’t top. I get monks get the short end of the stick all the time but if you only care about numbers then go play the number class.
I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to ask being average or even a little above when it comes to numbers. Even if there will always be a best and a worst, a 1 DPS spec class really shouldn’t be the one to be part of the bottom.
Monk is not fun its the bfa dh of shadowlands, the only thing that could be fun is the teleport and thats it. Every other ability is just another shiny button you get to mash, if they were to make monk revolved around serenity and having slow but impactfull hits for example 20% dmg reduction to xuen, blackout kick, and palm, but a dmg increase to FoF, and please bring back the dot touch of death that gameplay was very fun when monk was more cooldown based than just mashing shinies.
All in all remove xuen and bring back bfa touch of death.
I’ve played both in BfA and it’s not even close. BfA DH and pre-nerf WW in SL were super fun, but their gameplay differs greatly from one another. WW has triple the amount of buttons in its rotation for starters.
You recognize that SOMEONE has to be bottom. I don’t think it’s fair to say a hunter/rogue/mage/warlock spec “should be bottom” just because they can respec to two other damage options. Someone should feel they can play their class and spec, and have fun, without exploiting bugs to climb meters.
That said, there is a real community perception issue, that stems from “if you’re not first, you’re last”. That’s a trash cultural norm, not a design issue. A 90% monk parse still outplays a good percentage of other classes and specs. Trying to normalize all parse percentiles across all specs with how stats and gear interact with the various kits in different contexts is -impossible-.
Monk has long had a “best” spec too in Brewmaster. It doesn’t feel good to be told “respec”, whether it’s cross role or not.
I don’t blame the current devs for not having a clue. That’s on Activision Blizzard. I do, however, blame the MoP devs for never delivering Monk as advertised leading up to the introduction of the class, and Legion devs for gutting the kit to make DH.
I’d love to play Monk. But honestly haven’t been able to since WoD, just because the underlying systems are so poorly designed, and the kit is extremely bland vis-a-vis literally any other class.
To be fair, most classes have triple or at least double the number of DH’s buttons in their priorities.
I am ready to be the last monk standing. And the last alliance player too.
Come on, blizzard, is that all you can do? I am not even feeling it yet. I will take it all and I will laugh back at you.
I do realize someone has to be at the bottom, but classes that only have one spec filling each role should at least be average in all of them. Playing to a different spec is very different from playing a different role. A person that’s good at playing DPS isn’t necessarily good at playing healer or tank, and vice-versa.
I used to play Mage and Rogue, and although I do have a preferred spec in each class, I don’t mind playing whichever one is best at the moment. At the end of the day, it’s still the class I enjoy playing the role I also enjoy the most, which is DPS.
Of course the best course of action is reducing the distance between each spec, but even then, there will be bottom dwellers. I just think multi-role classes shouldn’t be the ones to be there because of reasons already stated above.
Before you jump ship, take a look at Talby’s recent post here discussing the current state of ww. We’re not doing as well as last patch, but we’re still okay.
You can make it work if its the class you want to play; contrary to popular belief, the spec is not dead yet.
Oh no, I’ve ready it and I’m not jumping ship. I still wish the class to be good and get better improvements, but those won’t be coming until at least 9.1 most likely. There are also plenty of bugs in need of fixing (I really, really, really hate the delay on ToD, seriously) and other stuff that needs tweaking, but I’m sticking with the class. It’s very hard for me to reroll mid-expansion unless I really need to for some reason.
I’m still waiting on a FoF buff too and maybe MotC rework.
Oh, I was talking to op not you! Glad you’re sticking with it though. I was going to reroll fire mage, but also have decided to stay with ww partly because I definitely feel you on rerolling mid expansion. It will take at least a month to get to 215+, and that’s even less fun than getting nerfed.
That being said, they hotfixed dance of chi ji yesterday and I found the buff to be pretty noticeable. I would say we’re closer to a 10% loss on aoe now, not the 20-25% as was previously forecasted by babs.
WW could still use some buffs of course (especially to FoF), but I no longer feel like the class is either dead or dead-weight.
Yeah, I haven’t had the chance to do M+ this week yet, so I can’t really say how much of a nerf I will be able to feel until I, well… feel it for myself. I didn’t really feel that much of a difference when I killed Inerva though. The most annoying part I was able to feel really is not cancelling FoF when above 50% Haste.
I still have hope for 9.1, and there are also plenty of bugs still in need of fixing that would give us tremendous QoL improvements when they do. I’m still mad ToD is bugged though.
I can see this to some extent, but I can’t play Fire mage without spending a lot more time behind the helm. Despite Fire being better performance wise, I can only reasonably play Frost or Arcane well today.
A bit different happening there, as all mages are above average, but I believe since they don’t have the option to play a different, in-demand role, their performance should be higher on average.
In that same view, I don’t think Retribution should be guaranteed to outdamage at least one Rogue spec in fights that favor melee. In fact, I think the hybrid tax should, at least in part, make it’s way back into the game, with some encounters being designed for that tax in mind (why are humanoids more prevalent than undead in the Shadowlands 
).
While WW isn’t anything like Retribution in terms of off-healing or support and defensives, that’s the tone of the argument: A class with a single damage spec should do better than classes with two or more.
In the case of Shaman, I think Elemental should out damage Retribution on range favored fights, just as Enhancement should out damage Shadow on melee favored fights. There is some encounter dynamic in those assumed contexts, and having “just one damage spec” shouldn’t come with any sort of guarantee on where in the final ranking your class performance falls.
I think Warcraft Logs provides some great data for Blizzard to consider in tuning and design. But I think players overvalue what they find there. There’s no reasonable “performance floor” that says “here’s where you should actually draw the line” on their ranking screen. If you consider 50% parses of successful kills, there is representation there of even underrepresented specs. The problem is when you get into tails and ask “who deserves to be flavor of the month”.
A ground up reroll is profoundly more work than a spec change adjustment. That’s the entire argument for making hybrid 1-DPS classes not experience that burden. Which i fully agree with
God no plz. I love my execute and xuen makes us actually viable in pvp.
I do miss some of my brews though
Except it discounts that the CLASS is more than the 1-DPS spec. If you play to play DPS, I don’t know why you’d go Monk over Rogue…
Some people enjoy WW, and enjoy the uniqueness of the Monk Class. That said, MW and BRM aren’t necessarily OP right now, and swapping roles from DPS to Tank/Heal are vastly different from swapping from DPS to DPS. I don’t see how we’re gonna find a mid ground on this point unfortunately
Edit: Rogue Sub -> Sin still share some really core elements, movement, defensives, etc. It’s rotation is very different sure, but it’s not as different as WW -> BRM. Min-maxing performance in a DPS class that has a nearly elite option, vs a hybrid class that’s DPS is suddenly dropped from existence (v hyperbolic in WW case for example) is just not the same
The question isn’t whether you’re top of bottom of the chart. The question is the gap between the top and the bottom. Aggregate parse data is all fine and good, but there are also other considerations that no one takes into account when worshipping those numbers… like sampling bias.
Looking at this week’s Heroic Raiding parses the spec score gap between WW and Affliction is about 15%. Accounting for the sampling bias of high skilled meta chasers always playing meta that gap closes to between 8-10%. If an 8-10% gap on aggregate parse data is enough to get you to bail on a class you enjoy then power to you. The problem with WoW is by-and-large not their inability to balance. It’s the class elitism the players base force upon each other regardless of the statistical efficacy of doing so. The notion that players feel it necessary to drop a WW in M+ for a Balance Druid despite the gap there being within 5% is a player problem, not a balance problem.
For reference: check out Dark Legacy #558. That’s WoW today.
Agreed with sampling bias & performance, but an enormous amount of the player base rides on the LFG nature of the game. Simply saying inherent bias/toxicity is a player only problem overlooks the foundation the game is built on. Things like PvP solo queue may erase (in the PvP sphere) some of that stigma, but it seems to be a non starter at this moment. Balance problems are player problems, and player problems should in some way be Dev problems
Edit: there is an enormous focus on min-maxing in this game head to toe with how many internal and external extensions have been allowed to the game. It’s not a player only problem, it’s an enabled problem