There’s a balancing point on too many stats vs not enough stats. I’ve seen games that have like 30+ stats to worry about, and depending on your role or class … you can probably ignore up to 2/3 of them.
Also, the more stats, the more work it takes to balance everything.
Ie “+4% Critical Damage” … is it stronger or weaker than “+9 Healing Prowess” for a healer? We don’t know! We have to spend weeks upon weeks of sims, and hope the company doesn’t change the potency of either one!
I will agree to a return of tier sets and a genuine and flexible talent system.
What frustrates me, as a player that has seen this story play out time and again, is that I already know how this is going to play out.
-Blizzard introduces a system like this where the players are locked into a choice and that choice inevitably causes players to choose one ability over another because of course they will
-Blizzard resists players recommendations/advice/feedback to change it for the better
-Lot of grief and aggravation
-Blizzard wastes a lot of time trying to fix a system they created in spite of feedback
-Systems are amended/added/patched up to be something approaching what the feedback ultimately suggested.
It’s so stupid and so frustrating.
It is just really aggravating for me that I feel like I, as a player, am being told that I bear some kind of burden because of Blizzards lack of foresight and imagination. They’ve repeatedly tried this before, and Blizzard has a history of not being able to properly balance stuff like this. The fact that Blizzard has decided that this is how they are going to make the choice of covenants (or even the need to make a choice) is a decision it and it alone made.
This argument, while spirited, is in my opinion ultimately a forgone conclusion. Of course they’re going to have to scrap this or make major revisions. The question the Blizzard team needs to decide is: Is it going to do this now, while it’s still in Alpha, or is it going to waste a lot of developer time after release (Like the Azerite System and Essences) to fix it then?
Basically. Blizzard wants people to make that choice. Many people don’t want to make that choice.
They don’t want to be “Uber leet 1%” at everything. They just want to use the covenant that is better for a given type of content, or even for a given spec if they swap roles.
That’s where the disconnect is, because Blizzard wants people to do something that people don’t want to do. We’ve seen it many, many times before and it always plays out the same.
And we are going to hear “meaningful choice” on repeat from now until the system meets its inevitable fate - either during testing or when it gets fired at the live servers like a rocketship full of flaming dumpsters.
I still think they can save the system if they just go with the series of Reddit suggestions which say tie it to the questing experience in the zone and make it a level up thing.
So you get your class abilities, but not that unique covenant ability which is a utility thing.
This is the one argument I think is fair and have sympathy with. If I am still playing the game, I will be matching each of my characters with what theme suits them best and I know I would be furious if that was changed midstream therefore invalidating my choice.
To be fair, it’s hard to malign Ralph. His contempt for everyone who doesn’t share his specific and narrow definition of “what an MMORPG” is and how its systems should work is evident in his voluminous, invective-filled threads and responses on… well, on every topic.
Yes. I should clarify - I don’t think the Covenant system in and of itself is flawed. It actually looks really cool. The problem I see is locking class abilities to a one-and-done choice. That will go over very poorly.
I’ve seen some people say that this is like classes in general so what do we care? To which I will point out that people in fact cannot stand when their classes are gimped compared to others… And adding even more of that will not turn out well.
If Blizzard does actually listen and decouples the abilities from choosing a single covenant then the system will probably be really great.
Yeah thats why I think they can remove the class abilities from the covenants, tie them to questing in the zone or rep or something and then you just get them for performing a task for the covenant.
Then the big covenant abilities. Like the night fae transforming thing, you have to be nightfae to get that.
That leaves the balancing to those utility spells and still leaves meaningful choice since you get to pick your utility like a racial of sorts.
Permanently locking people into one path that grants player power would only begin to make sense if we weren’t dealing with Blizzard, who absolutely cannot subtly balance anything, and who always end up wildly swinging from one extreme to the other.
They frequently insanely over or underpower a class or ability, with any so-called “correction” being a full-steam charge to the opposite end of the scale. It’s not a design philosophy that lends itself to immutable mutually exclusive choice-derived expansion-based power gains.
Then there’s the problem where they hammer some abilities into the ground, but never even look at the really under-performing abilities. Then they give up on even pretending to care about balancing the old system when they move onto the next borrowed power system. Just look at the last time they even touched Azerite traits and you have to wonder why anyone would think Blizz is going to care any more about Covenant abilities.
They won’t, and Ion’s response to the immediate feedback makes me remember the old adage of where the blame lies for being fooled twice. He and his team are who they are and that’s not going to change.
That said - I still want to be wrong. I want them to fix this before it goes live… I’m just not holding my breath for it, and I’m not giving them my money in hopes that these leopards will change their spots.
I think Ion will change because he said his team is actively discussing it. Here is the thing, if streamers who have access to Alpha starting saying that all of the covenant class abilities feel fun and they want all of them, they should just make a way to give them all of them.
I think we should borrow the class ability while questing and then at the end of the zone, where there is normally a dungeon, you complete the dungeon quest and get access to that ability.
Then the covenant can say “Come visit us again at level 60 if you wish to learn even further secrets.” Then you can unlock the utility ability, soulbinds and the campaign.
But I mean… there is reason for them to give us all the abilities if you think about it. Blizzard stated at Blizzcon we are unique. We’re the ONLY person who can go to and from the maw. So the covenants would want to court us and can do so through abilities we learn after finishing their zone story.
I know. That’s the big bloody mess. And like others have said, they bungled Azerite Traits.
And yet if they make the traits 100% open to everyone, they run into an equal mess where people find a way to combine coffee, donuts and asphalt and create the solution to work hunger.
Players are weird like that, finding creative ways to combine abilities to get results the designers never even considered in their worst nightmares.
What is the solution? Besides speaking up and hope someone listens and takes note and they exercise caution?
My hope is that they are finally taking a lesson from Legendaries and Azerite armor. That is, people like to be able to swap and experiment with stuff, and they like being able to use different things in different situations.
Both Legendaries and Azerite flopped because there was no way to do that. Covenants at least allow an initial choice but will fall apart after that choice has been made. That’s why I’m hoping for the ability to swap.
It is becoming less elective as even casual groups adopt it by copying the hardcore playerbase.
“They said we need X to be competitive”
You can’t design a game around it being simulated to death while offering different options. It trickles down from the top until players who can’t even make use of their class optimally gatekeep incorrect specs.
Most of the covenant options will not be used at all. Players will pick the top sim not even knowing why its better.
They don’t like to experiment, they let others run the numbers and look it up a week later. Choice at an individual level is disappearing with the wealth of guides and data. Gaming isn’t about fun anymore.
I understand your viewpoint AND I understand Oakenshroot’s standpoint.
We’re in a situation where either way, we’re going to have a mess to deal with. We either deal with them bungling the power spread between the covenants, them creating a lackluster system, or they create fun and interesting abilities and then theorycrafters run the numbers.
Blizzard then sees that 49% of the players are using abilities X Y G and B and ignoring all the rest, they’re going to either double down on the stupid and make those 4 even more desirable, or they’ll nerf them to kingdom come.
And if that happens, folks will sim the next best set, and Blizzard will go and nerf those. Ad nauseum. And you end up with never being sure if the abilities you chose are good or not.
It’s really feeling like we have to find the easiest mess to clean up in this situation. And here I was trying to enjoy my donuts.
Thats why we do what others have suggested. I’ve seen numerous suggestions on Reddit where people have found a way which makes sense to give us each of the class abilities through gameplay and the story experience.
Go on reddit and check out where there are 1.5M people who discuss WoW. One of the hottest topics five days ago was covenants and people saying they don’t want to be locked out of the abilities. Then others saying they want meaningful choice.
Look at the lore right now for Shadowlands since lore is important for this game to function. We are the only being in the shadowlands that can go to and from the Maw. That is why the covenants want us. So, we learn their abilities while we join them on their journey through the zone.
I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Avatar the Last Airbender. Make it like that. The avatar has access to all the elements since they’re special. We’re special in shadow lands. Give us access to all the class abilities. But… let us specialize in one covenant through that utility spell.
If players are able to have their mythic+, PVP and raiding class ability through the story, then they can still CHOOSE their utility spell much like you choose your racial right now. And then put it some system to change it if maybe this week you’re dealing with a boss where you need the teleport ability and then make them work for it or something.
But right now, much of this debate would be eased if we can just put the class abilities in the player’s hands. That way they feel they are gaining something and then having a choice to gain a utility spell like an extra racial, which is important.
I think we can provide valuable feedback that pleases both sides if we just take Class Abilities out of the equation.That seems to be causing most of the issues. Once those are out of the discussion I can see people not caring too much about having to make a choice on the utility spells and soulbinds.
You’re playing a multiplayer game where people compete with each other. If you don’t want to read guides then you will be working with less informations and advantages than your competitor.
You can still make your own way like a lot of players do in multiplayer games and it sometime changes the meta, but you will need a lot more efforts to do that.
Gaming is and has always been about fun, but instead of trying and failing like before for 2 weeks or more, we follow guides so we can skip that unpleasant part for a lot of people.
It’s also to say that guides also existed before, even in the paper format before the internet so that way to play games always existed.
It might be less fun for you to do that and you don’t have to, unless you care about your perfomance and that you want to compete with other people, even at a casual level.