You’re right and wrong at the same time. The “simcraft” mindset is always there, yes. It’s been a thing since people figured out how to make the strongest D&D characters decades ago.
On the flip side, people really do like playing around with options. That’s also a thing.
Both sides could be happy if Covenants didn’t lock players in to a single ability choice.
I’m all for the devs doing what they want.
But…
With great power comes great responsibility. If they do what they want, and it’s a failure, they need to suffer the consequences, up to and including “pursuing personal opportunities elsewhere.”
This.
Just give everyone the class abilities, maybe take Rankin’s suggestion and make them have the same affect of your chosen covenant and then leave to balancing to the covenant ultimate ability, where it may be like racials which aren’t totally balanced.
I still want choice to matter and it will with the utility/ultimate covenant ability and the soulbinds.
Having listened to Ion’s full talk with Sloot now…
RPG choice seems to be their focus. What I think is missing here is that we make RPG choices all the time. From the time you choose:
On and on! The game is loaded to the gills with choice. I think what separates all the aforementioned RPG choices from this choice is the counterweight. All the aforementioned have obvious penalties. You choose one you can’t choose the other simultaneously. That’s all the covenant needed to be. For story purposes, for cosmetic purposes it’d be more than enough. I don’t feel like I need abilities from covenants to enjoy them and I think I speak for a lot of people on that. We have more than enough RPG choice as-is. Especially with abilities coming back.
I don’t know - probably for the same reason why some people are attracted to one hair color over an other; or one body part over another.
I don’t think people have a whole lot of control over it.
In this case - I just know that I like the system because it’s needlessly punishing to players who want to serve their teams as well as they can, and to players who are more casual and realize that they get nothing in exchange for that punishment onto the other players.
It’s why I support the system; and I think people should understand that these other options that address both sides of the “RP”/“Try-Hard” divide would take away the benefit to players like Ralph and myself.
So who decides what’s fun and what isn’t fun?
If 1 out of every 1000 players thinks something isn’t fun should someone get fired from their job?
On the other hand I think im probably delving too deep into something you didn’t really think about before typing.
The game should not be designed around the proclivities of players whose only pleasure in the game is schadenfreude. Making sure everybody is equally unhappy is going to lose them a lot of paying customers. Hardly anyone plays the game because of the inconvenience it causes other people.
Don’t flatter yourself. You are not some squeaky wheel they are enthralled with and want to pander to. They have chosen to develop the game this way because it’s really cheap template design. They hit a button and the content is created complete.
And people who can’t tell the difference and don’t care that no effort went into it, like you, are their new target demographic.
And yet - it is being designed the way we want.
It wouldn’t be difficult to simply allow the ability to change covenant spells freely - and in fact, this would make their job easier since they wouldn’t have to worry about balancing them out as much.
The template design would be the same, and the work would be less.
“Pandering” to us seems like the most simple reason; and we’ll take it. Right now we’re enjoying all the contention on the forums.
Who is this “we” of whom you speak? Are you speaking for an organization of misanthropes you head?
I disagree. The entire expansion is built around this concept. They are introducing this to us now because they know it will be badly accepted by players, and they think players will grow to accept it over time if they appear to be “communicating” with us.
The longer they wait the harder it will be to rip it out and start all over with something very different. IE, it’s already too late if they’re pushing ahead with this.
I’m sure you’ll be enjoying the suffering of you and your handful of fellow misanthropes when all the players who have been buying the game for its entertainment value over the years quit after it is no longer entertaining and mostly attracts people who, like you, like to gloat that they enjoy watching other people suffer.
Suffer well.
I’ve read the past few replies and I’m not even sure you folks are discussing the covenant system. It’s just like you’re going to a thesaurus to try and sound more educated in insulting each other.
Like I don’t even now what sides you two are arguing for.
So do you think the covenant system, currently as-is, does more harm to the game than helps it?
Would making it flexible to change abilities fix the issue for you?
Thread title states exactly what the problem is. The problem is first and foremost the “systems” they keep implementing. It is then compounded by the desire to “save” the “systems”. Lets start with this. How about restricting “systems” down to ONE per expansion.
BfA didn’t need Azerite Armor, the Heart of Azeroth, essences FOR the Heart of Azeroth, a cloak, and Corrupted gear. Look at that list. It should have stopped with Azerite gear.
Now for Shadowlands, we have covenants. Then you have these soul conduits thingies, and that’s just the announced “systems”.
It’s an impossible task trying to cater to everyone. But at the same time we shouldn’t be putting up a middle finger to either side of the argument. I actually feel for the team because they want to try something that’s a bit old school but give it a new twist with the Covenants. This system would’ve probably worked a lot better in TBC when we didn’t have all the answers. But now in a world of gaming we can’t pretend like it doesn’t exist either.
Players will min max which abilities are the best. And if you’re looking to get into progression choosing the “wrong covenant” can lead to possible exclusion and being denied from serious groups.
The only way for true balance to occur is to open up the Covenant abilities similar to choosing talents. But at that point we lose the RPG esque feel of making a choice and having said choice actually matter. The theme of what your character has chosen can be flipped in a heartbeat. One moment you’re shooting light out of your fingertips and then on the next encounter you’re summoning minions from the grave.
From my point of view both sides are at fault if it goes live like this. It’s on Blizzard if they want to start off with the approach that the information isn’t going to be out there for players to min max. But it’s also on the players for picking the game apart and then ostracizing others who don’t follow on the same path.
With this system, Blizzard has created an impossible task for themselves. Hope they can find a solution.
I didn’t say “fun”. I said if it’s “a failure”. That is, if it fails to retain customers. This isn’t about complaining, this is about $$$.
This is where I disagree - if they made the system flexible to change covenant abilities, then those who want to optimize could do so.
Casual RP players like myself could still make our own choice to stay loyal to one covenant and gain the value from that; we don’t need to impose our way of playing to still gain value - unless our value is derived from punishing others for simply wanting to play the game as well as possible in many of various ways available to us.
If game devs are trying to appease those latter people…then I’m kind of shocked; which is what has me questioning if I even want to support Shadowlands at all. The system seems punitive for punitive sake.
Blizzard has a player suggested solution that has been mentioned multiple times on reddit.
Open up the covenant class abilities as you level.
The soulbinds and covenant utility ability are less of an issue.
That’s great in a single player game but multi? I am sure a little extra code in raderio could make it a problem
“Looks like this healer chose c instead of d convent, next”
not to mention the potential for the one you chose to get nerfed and making you regret the work.
I’m agreeing from a gameplay perspective that making things flexible would be the right direction. But from a personal perspective I feel that the Covenant choice becomes kind of bunk. Mainly because I’d be interested in jumping into Mythic and the mentality there is that if there’s a specific way to make an encounter easier then there’s no reason to not do it.
So one moment I’d be doing Holy abilities from the Kyrian then doing Shadow bleed type damage on another encounter, possibly ignoring the Night Fae and using the Necrolords on add fights just as an example. To me, that doesn’t scream “Your Covenant choice matters”.
I agree with making them flexible. But I think they should add something that rewards your loyalty to a Covenant outside of the power progression.
It’s actually not.
Simply making the requirement for switching Covenants less cumbersome, so not feeling like you’re gimping your character for PvP because you pick a Covenant for Raid, M+ or even just cause you wanted to see their story would go a long way to fixing the problems many have with them.
I disagree that the idea that these choices only matter because we can’t easily change them. I can switch my spec whenever I choose, I can switch my talents whenever I choose, I can switch my transmog whenever I choose, and so on.
All of those choices still matter because I have a clear reason for making them.
I’m playing Destruction on bosses like Ilgynoth and Drest’gath, because the cleave on 2 priority targets is more desirable than the lower, but spread damage on more targets that Aff would offer, or the strong ST DPS that Demo would offer.
I choose Demon Skin over Burning Rush because I valued more survivability over mobility on Mythic Ilgynoth tonight, because it’s a fight where I take a ton of damage, but rarely move.
I choose to wear Heroic Warlock T10 because I felt like turning off Green Fire, and I like matching my sets to my specs overall thematics.
I’m not locked into any of those choices. They’re all super easy to change. But they’re still meaningful enough for me to give an explanation of why I made those choices.
I would agree if BFA hadn’t already grossed so much money.
In that aspect your argument is invalid but ultimately I do see the point you’re making.
it’s a little on the irrational side but I also agreed with removing jay Wilson from d3 so my stance is subject to change