Very good, Rhea, though I should point out I’ve seen clever prot paladins use Greater Blessing of Kings to hold threat in Vanilla. But you’re pretty much correct on everything.
paladins were the MT of every instance in tbc, there were nights where our prot pala solo tanked like 90% of the 25 man instance, druids can’t wear a shield so they can’t tank KT and they struggle to tank illidan because they can’t block shear, maybe the only boss in the entire expansion that bears> paladin is brutallus
There is nothing wrong with DK tanks from my experience.
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Oh I’m not asking for a buff, I’m asking for a nerf.
You weren’t a meme spec, you just had to wait. Why is it fine for warriors to have to wait to have an A tier PvE spec but Paladin gets two S-tiers and you require your next one to be C (to then become A)?
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Closer than it’s ever been?! LMAO.
If you want to legitimately push through hard modes in ulduar , you NEED a pally tank. All others put so much stress on the raid it’s insane.
And don’t even get me started on Alaglon. There’s a reason that 78 of the clears on him are Pally tanks. They have abilities to survive that no other class has.
It’s not even remotely close.
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If you’re talking about Wrath then perhaps. If you’re talking about Vanilla…No.
As for nerfs to prot pallies? It’s not gonna help warriors tank Algalon better.
As for the current balance, it’s simply a result of the balance path from Vanilla to now. Blizzard made paladins in Vanilla to be buff bots in dresses while warriors had the only tanking spec AND a DPS spec that was wildly out of control.
So the buff/nerf bat is applied, and overdone both ways.
So, yes, Warriors have a case for Fury/prot buffs.
Question is though: did you protest in Classic Vanilla about Warriors having 3 amazing specs and paladins basically only 1? Because by your own words, why was it acceptable back then to have it that way?
I feel like even without AD, Paladin tanks would still be in the same place they are in Wrath Classic.
They have a very strong toolkit, and as a class offer raid utility that makes it desirable to have multiple paladins per raid, unlike most other classes.
DKs have a pretty good toolkit also, and are (at least imo) a fun tank class to play.
I think DKs often get put in the OT role, where really their toolkit shines in single target boss tanking. But, I haven’t played around much with Frost tanking builds for raiding. I’m hoping to mess around with that more today in 10m.
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I never referenced vanilla once, nor did I play a warrior in vanilla. Should I be held responsible for the benefits past warriors had due to me being a warrior now?
Wonder where I’ve heard that before…
Should I be held responsible for the balance decisions they made in Wrath?
If not, then you really need to edit your first post, and leave any mention of Rets from it.
TBC was only Bear Offtanks because they had the highest dps when offtanking but the Prot pally was probably main tanking everything by T5 except a handful of fights in Sunwell
Yes, because you are defending it as though it’s reasonable despite there being no balance changes like this in previous iterations of classic.
What exactly am I defending? I’ve said warriors could probably use attention right now.
But by that logic, I could turn it around on you and say you’re defending Ret/Prot being meme specs in Classic.
Blade, if you want to advocate for buffs/nerfs that’s fine, but you cannot hold Rets responsible. Edit your main post.
You’re trying to justify the ret buffs from a place of them being left behind. But when prot pallies are so far ahead your logic is to say warrior buffs are fine? It’s a non-sequitur.
The issue isn’t that prot warriors are behind, the issue is that prot paladins are so far ahead of the other three tanks it’s ludicrous.
I will hold rets responsible, you all cried for buffs and you got them. Now nothing’s off the table.
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You can get the reasoning for that from the horses mouth itself in the post they made if you even bothered to read it. You just don’t like what they had to say.
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How is that a non-sequitur? Let’s arrange this: if Prot Paladins are considered miles ahead of all other tanks, and I’d say buffing Prot Warriors would be ok for them to keep up, how does that not line up with what Blizzard has already done?
Well, I’ll let the actual pro guilds decide that one. Don’t think either of us are in a position to debate that.
First, I can actually say that I didn’t seriously call for any buffs to Ret paladins when it happened. Feel free to look at my post history all you like.
Second, Rets got bumped up to around Fury Warriors DPS, and suddenly the entire spec is responsible for the state of Prot Warriors? But hey, if changes come so be it. You act like I would be upset. I wouldn’t be. Sorry to dissappoint you.
Third, I’m just gonna consider this more Ret hate. You’ve pretty much lost credibility. This isn’t about Prot Warriors, its about how much you hate us, like a good chunk of this fanbase. I’m honestly happy they buffed Ret paladins, not just because of the personal benefit we reap, but because somehow its made all of you nutters scream that the world is ending.
After all of the vile messages I’ve received in Classic about being Ret, I can say I’m enjoying this schadenfreude with a glass of red wine.
Thank you. But I think you’re wasting your time. He’s just another Ret hater and has proven as much.
Yeah, that’s fine 
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RELAX!!! protection warriors get gud in BFA
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TBC was Pallytank after P2 till the end. Pally and a Feral => GG.
On everything else i kinda agree, Wotlk has a generally good Tank balance with one exception.
I am a protpally Main, and i want to have that conversation.
First, lets take a loot at what makes Protpallys strong, or too strong:
-
Blocktank, high baseline dmg reduce
-
Widest range of Utility, and Defensive Cooldowns.
2 Minute Shieldwall, 2 Minutes Barkskin (Hand of Salvation glyphed), 2 minutes Raidsac, 2 Minutes AD
Only a DK tank could even begin to compare with that, but only against certain magic dmg dealing bosses, of which basically none exists that would make the DK tank that much favored. -
Huge Raidbuffs/Debuffs in one spec:
-Blessings
-Hands
-Crit debuff
-AP debuff
-Atckspeed debuff -
Besides AD´s cheat death mechanic, ADs other ability makes Protpally scale really well with Gear, (like DKs will of the necropolis) giving them real EHP value that is above a feral druid, the Tank that has high EHP as its speciality.
So what could be done to Nerf Protpallys ?
Actually a lot, and most efficiently would be a nerf to AD, by either removing the Cheat Death aspect, or the Will of the Necropolis Aspect.
As a protpally, i would definitly Prefer having the Cheat Death aspect removed, because even with that removed Protpallys would still be top notch tanks.
My main concern is, that this would basically punish a lot of Raids, that rely on Protpallys, and in some way make the content more punishing, and give a better showcase on the bad designed mechanics of some encounters.
Lets be honest, the only encounter currently in the game where Protpallys OPness even matters is Algalon.
And it matters, because Algalon has a horrible Design in how he functions.
His ability to Attack very Fast, and deal potentially impossible amounts of Dmg with bad RNG on the tanks side, is a stupid design, and inherently flawed.
If RNGeesus decides that its time for Algalon to hit the Tank with MH+OH + Quantum Strike two times in a row, thats about 50-60k dmg within 1.2 seconds.
If he decides to do so while a black hole explodes, that is another ~15k dmg on top.
That is the reason why defensive SelfCD and Externals are used on the Tank while playing Algalon - to prevent the Tank from Dying due to bad RNG.
And a pally Tank with AD up just has the huge boon of not needing to be chained with defensives before AD procs - making the fight much more relaxed.
Thats pretty much the whole scenario of Pallytanks being OP, their ability to shine on Algalon, based on a bad game design.
I would love to see a similar ability like AD on every other Tank.
That way we can keep having stupid bossdesigns, and every Tank has the same advantage in handling it.
And while some may cry “this is just making everything play the same” - its not.
All tanks in Wotlk have a vastly differing playstyle, and their own weaknesses and strengths.
Giving them the same tool to handle very specific types of encounters, would not take away from that, it would just bring them so much more in line, and in a direction where “bring the player not the class” would truly be a thing.
Raid with your Warrior, your Feral, your DK or your Pally, not because they are the one dude that has that one ability that is so sickening strong, but because they are the players you want to play with, and they like the flavor of the Tank they are playing.
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What a long-winded way of saying nothing. It’s a non-sequitur because the logic for a spec being behind = buff > prot pally being ahead of three tanks = buff warrior?
That’s how illogical it is. Saying “You lose credibility” when not actually refuting anything but giving a personal opinion: “I’m just gonna consider this more ret hate” shows how disingenuous you’re being to this debate.
You got buffed because you were “so far” behind. Now let’s nerf the same class in a different spec and all will be well. It makes sense and you know it does. It’ll get everyone to stop asking for buffs since pallies get a positive and a negative added to the class.
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