But you haven’t spread facts? Not once in this troll thread have you said anything remotely close to a fact.
It’s been your opinion wrapped in bad faith and strawman arguments and if anyone disagrees with you then you claim you are the only being civil.
I assure you, the kind of troll tactic you engage in is not civil. And you know what you are doing.
I think I have. The ilevel buff will mean Warriors overtake Ret in DPS next phase. I’m not saying otherwise. But I don’t think this is a huge problem in the big scheme of things. Warriors currently have zero reasons to be brought to a raid beyond having mates that like hanging around with us bring us along or being in a guild focused on ICC.
Even with the ilvl buff it will bring our dps to mid tier. And this is the only raid competitive role we have (and we currently don’t have that).
Pallys have loads of reasons to be a preferred raid option. This continues through all phases. Even Ret at least offers some good utility.
Blizzard’s opinion too. They make the rules so thats how it becomes fact.
Hurling insults is not the same as disagreeing with someone. When someone decides they have nothing to offer the thread besides calling me a troll because they don’t agree with me then the best action is to send them on their way respectfully. Unlike you I’m not here to start a flame war.
You intentionally aviod the context that for Warriors to be competitive in dps you only have to wait one phase.
For rets they have to remain bottom of the meters for 90% of the expansion before they get the items they’ve been nerfed around.
Rets utility is not a justification to bring them. In 25 raid settings many different specs and classes bring the same buffs. Ret offers nothing unique that only they can bring. So all that’s left is their dps which is projected to fall behind by 20-30% of the median average. Not the top. The middle.
Also avoiding the context that paladin players have no other dps alternatives inside their class other than ret. They have 4 options. 1) suffer 2) change roles 3) change classes entirely or 4) quit.
Now if you could garner any sympathy and put yourself in someone else shoes you’d see that all of these options are untenable. Asking for nerfs to be rolled back so rets like warriors are about to experience can join the middle of the pack and not fall even further behind next phase.
If you can’t understand this then idk what to tell you.
DPS should be based around difficulty of rotation
So basically you want to top the meters, be S tier tanks/heals, have a unique utility to the raid, and be extra strong in ICC on top of all that. Thats not asking for much at all.
Again with the straw man arguments.
No Ret in any of the threads has asked for that. I’m willing to be every Ret would be happy with being middle of the pack along with what warriors are abo it to be due to the ilvl changes.
Also no dps player cares about how good another spec in a different role is.
Boomkins/ferals don’t care if bear or tree are good. They are dps players.
Unholy/frost don’t care that blood is a good tank. They are worried about playing dps.
Enh doesn’t care how good resto is. They want to dps.
So why would rets care about how good prot or holy are when they just wanna dps?
Can you answer that.
Not really.
With Warriors, you can argue that bringing them now will pay off in Ulduar, because they’ll be geared for that content. Then they’ll scale very well with the new Ulduar item level buffs.
With Paladins, you can almost argue that bringing them now is a waste of gear, because they’ll actively lose dps in Ulduar. Ret Paladins don’t scale nearly as well with the gear improvements and we lose dps from several sources that are propping up our low numbers now. Right out of the gate, we lose damage from 1% Glyph of Sense Undead and 3% from Crusade. We also lose the automatic crits from Exorcism and we can’t use Holy Wrath at all. Our relative dps is going to drop.
The utility Ret can bring is a moot point to bring up, because it is either brought by Prot and Holy or can be brought by classes that outperform Ret.
Sims are suggesting that Ret will be the bottom of the dps by a substantial margin next phase. The boomkin will bring the 3% haste, the Arcane Mage will bring the 3% damage, the Prot Paladin or Destro Warlock will bring the 3% crit. Holy Paladins can bring Aura Mastery. Holy and Prot can bring Divine Sacrifice. Shadow Priest, Destro Warlock, and Survival Hunter can all bring Replenishment.
Sure, these specs might not have the highest numbers for their class, but they still put out respectable numbers and bring utility. Ret brings utility, but garbage numbers. For For example, you’d be better off making one of your Mages go Arcane than bring a Ret Paladin, because you still bring the buff and more damage than you would by bringing the Ret Paladin.
I’m sorry dude Blizz said they are only interested in class balance and paladins as a class are already well represented in raiding.
I take your point though I’m not as convinced that Warriors will do as well as people are suggesting in Ulduar. Warrior scaling isn’t that great. Warriors general stat scaling is about average. They scale particularly will with Armor pen cap but generally that’s about it. So, while Warriors will move off the bottom of the list to about the middle - we won’t actually do “well” until ICC in my view.
Which is fine.
Also Warriors only have one dps spec that’s viable in Ulduar (maybe). Arms scales terribly. And that’s it - so I’m not getting why it’s such a bad thing that Ret gets overtaken by Fury in Ulduar? Unless you are of the view that Warriors should remain bottom in all of their specs so that Ret isn’t? That seems more than a little unreasonable.
As a Warrior player I’d like to play the game too you know ;p And it’s not like I can become a premier pick by just switching roles. Yes yes we get proper good in ICC - um so does Ret.
As for Ulduar - we will go from bottom to middle - and we have no other competitive options.
Interesting you chose to completely avoid the question I asked because it doesn’t sit well with your troll narrative.
Dude don’t waste your time replying to him.
He honestly thinks warriors arent the best stat scaling class in the game and that rets can magically switch to a tank or healer and retain a raid spot.
As someone who cleared all pre nerf content in TBC with 2 rogues in the raid, ret paladin’s are blowing this WAAAAAY out of proportion. You’re not optimal but you are more than viable.
We thank you for your service - good to see the long suffering Rogues get to have some fun in Wrath 
You’ll be able to meet the soft cap from armor penetration in Ulduar, with the item level changes. That alone will be a significant buff. Fury will probably be middle of the pack in Ulduar, probably upper mid in phase 3, and you’ll be top of the meters in ICC.
Ret will be bottom in Ulduar by a substantial amount, near bottom in Phase 3, and middle of the pack in ICC. In Ulduar, we will be a few hundred dps under Arms Warriors and Fury Warriors will have us beat by nearly 1500 dps. We are already at a place where we are starting to be outperformed by Subtlety Rogues, Frost Mages, and BM Hunters, so I expect we will be under them too.
Fury Warriors likely aren’t complaining much, because they have near-future gains to be optimistic about. Ret Paladins are looking to be near-useless for the next year or so. It’s really weird that you’re trying to frame it as Ret Paladins wanting to keep Warriors down at the bottom.
Should Ret be an unviable spec just because Prot and Holy are in a good place?
That’s probably accurate. But only for Fury. Arms will remain trash and Warriors will be borderline unviable as hardmode tanks.
And - unlike Ret - this will be our only raid competitive spec - middle of the pack in Ulduar. If you were proposing Warrior Prot buffs as well then maybe you might start to have a point.
Ret will be better than middle in ICC btw - substantially. The set bonus is that good.
What you are proposing is that Warriors as a class should be made completely irrelevant in the next phase so you can have the choice of 3 premier specs and roles.
It’s better than having no competitive dps spec. Middle of the pack is a respectable spot, when you know you only have progressive growth to look forward to.
You might bring up Holy or Prot, but that is just comparing apples and oranges. Swapping main specs like that often involves finding new raid groups. It isn’t the same as just changing to the spec that can keep up with your role.
If you want to campaign for Prot or Arms buffs, go ahead. We aren’t going to begrudge you that.
We aren’t proposing anything about Warriors as a class. We are asking that Ret be made a viable spec and you’re trying to make it about Warrior for some reason. Even if Ret did get some buffs to be competitive, a raid would still have room for Fury.
Right now, Ret is looking to be about 300 dps behind Arms and 1000 dps behind the next spec (Marksman).
Having one middling dps spec and no other comptetitive role or spec is better than having no viable dps spec but being the go to option for Tanking and healing? I think not.
If we don’t get middling dps next phase then we basically will have to pay people for a raid spot as Warriors - or reroll. As it is our only claim to a raid spot is that we may be okay to bring along as dps if you can’t find another Rogue or DK. Even with the iLvl buff. We don’t even get the option of Tanking through the phase - Warriors lack of defensives will hit us harder next phase than this phase.
Any Warrior that doesn’t already have a firm raid spot will basically have to sit it out until ICC. As for Pallys you have options. Having said all this neither of us have it as bad as Rogues had it in TBC … so, perspective.
I’m not here to answer your questions sorry. You have shown to be quite disrespectful since you first posted so I highly doubt you would accept any answer I give you tbh.
If you can’t make a post without calling someone a troll maybe you should just not post in the forums. Not surprised though because in the past this is exactly how you behaved when posting on your priest peepoclown.
Lmao I don’t even have a priest.
The reason you don’t want to answer the question is because you know you are a bad faith actor. And that’s all apart of your game.