There is literally nothing wrong with redeeming Sylvanas

Lore Story Forum
102

Some out of character perspective is necessary for what I’m saying to not sound like insanity.

So, Metzen has made the claim that everything runs in cycles. That these things are supposed to happen, over and over.

So, when Sylvanas talks to Anduin, she talks about how so little is actually in anyone’s control and that the part they play in that predetermined path either rewards them or damns them unjustly.

Maybe I’m reading the lips of the person behind the puppet here but I feel that they want a story arc to tackle that “cycles” rule that Metzen ran with.

103

Isn’t that what theorycrafting is? :slight_smile: I don’t disagree. I’m just interested to see where the lore takes us here.

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104

Yes but Arthas also lacked a soul when he did those evil things, the soul was his moral compass.

Mercs and strath are all on him though, the strath is debatable in terms of in the moment thinking after witnessing people turn before your eyes beforehand.

105

In the context of Warcraft 3 he has more insight then uther and the others, he had watched people turn before reaching Stratholme and because of his personality and devotion to his people seeing that was traumatic for him.

106

He has a soul. It’s what Uther throws in the maw. “His soul was the first claimed by Frostmourne” is metaphorical, people.

107

I think you’re sorely overestimating the current writing team’s capabilities. Your optimism is commendable, though. That said there has been little presented over the past four to five years that gives any reason to have confidence in the forthcoming execution of their vision for the story. They have grand ambitions for writing with great depth, but they deliver shallow kiddie pool water at best.

Between poorly framed perspectives on the narrative, and grossly incomplete stories, any chance at delivering a nuanced plot that lands on its feet is a long shot in my book.

As it is always with the writing team: because it is convenient for the plot.

I long for the days of expansion-contained stories, I really, truly do. I pay 40-60 bucks for an expansion… I had better get the story from start to finish. Battle for Azeroth was, instead, paying for an all inclusive five course meal and having the chef come out after the appetizers and say: “It’ll be another $40-$60 before you get the next course.”

Legion had a single plot element that offered a launch pad into BFA.

BFA outright blue ballsed the community.

If Blizzard had adequately handled any one single element of BFA, I could forgive maybe them, but they fumbled and dropped every single storyline, or shoe horned in endings to move on fast, and it’s a downright shame to see.

I really don’t know what hope you’re clinging to, and to be honest, at this point I really don’t think it matters much anymore, at least not to folks like me. Blizzard deliberately passed on their opportunity to deliver on a meaningful, nuanced conclusion to the BFA expansion (specific to the Faction War and Sylvanas’ betrayal of the Horde, more than anything else), in favor of ramming down a bizarre redemption plot for one of the least deserving characters in the entire franchise.

The company’s obsession with the glorification of unrcontionable acts and the unconditional forgiveness of the culprits is way beyond out of hand at this point; it’s genuinely concerning.

Furthermore, it’s blatantly disrespectful that the company first lied, misled, and then strung along the players for two years on the themes and expectations for BFA, only to spit in their face and then ask for more money before they’re willing to deliver any resolution for the expansion.

Shadowlands seems to be every bit the spiritual successor in that regard, and I am so grateful that I did not waste the money on buying it. I told myself I’d wait till halfway through to see how the narrative was received before I gave any ground on reconsidering, but so far it looks like I’m off the train.

I really do hope you’re right, and I hope you all enjoy it. I’m going to stick to enjoying the old world, and start moving past the narrative all together. It’s no longer worth the investment.

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108

You didn’t play Legion right?

109

Remember how Frostmourne idk broke before Arthas died, not metaphorical.

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110

Pretty interesting how none of the people who were in Frostmourne ever reference or act like Arthas is in there with him and instead just treat the Lich King and Arthas as one in the same, then.

I can’t think of any other time in which someone in Warcraft has had their soul removed from their body and it causes their body to retain all their memories and personality, effectively creating a clone of themselves. Usually they just die.

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111

Uther in halls of reflection didn’t treat Arthas like he’s actually in control

  • HR_Uther_Alliance02 - Jaina you haven’t much time. The Lich King sees what the sword sees. He will be here shortly!
  • HR_Uther_Alliance03 - No girl, Arthas is not here. Arthas is merely a presence within the Lich Kings mind. A dwindling presence.
  • HR_Uther_Alliance04 - Jaina listen to me. You must destroy the Lich King! You cannot reason with him! He will kill you and your allies and raise you all as powerful soldiers of the scourge!
  • HR_Uther_Alliance05 - Snap out of it girl! You must destroy the Lich King at the place where he merged with Ner’Zhul! Atop the spire, at the Frozen Throne. It is the only way.
  • HR_Uther_Alliance06 - There is… something else that you should know about the Lich King. Control over the scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King, another would have to take its place. For without the control of its master, the scourge would run rampant across the world, destroying all living things.
  • HR_Uther_Alliance07 - A grand sacrifice by a noble soul.
  • HR_Uther_Alliance08 - I do not know, Jaina. I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the scourge from annihilating Azeroth.
  • HR_Uther_Alliance09 - No, Jaina! Aargh! He… He is coming! You… You must…

If you’re referring to Terenas he probably refers to the lich king as his son as an appeal to the dwindling presence of Arthas, at the time. Also a world of undead and you can’t see a soulless husk being able to walk around?

112

Yea but that’s part of the problem. How exactly, would she redeem herself? She willingly allied with one of the worst beings in existance, killed an untold ammount of Night elves and had their souls sent to the maw where some of them have already been destroyed forever, sent even more souls there by orchestrating the fourth war, and through all of it have yet to feel a single shred of regret, while doing all of this because she, and she alone, felt like she was wronged.

The only way I could possibly see a “redemption” arc, is if she realizes that every deed she has done since Arthas lost his hold over her has been out of her own free will. That she has nothing and no one to blame for her actions, except herself.
Let her feel the guilt of all her actions, and the realization that no matter what she does, she can’t make up for it. And then let her try, and fail. Have her die miserable, unloved, and hated by everyone and everything, knowing that she consistently have choosen the wrong path every time.

I’d say that’s about it, because she sure as hell aint getting a happy ending after what she has done, nor a triumphant one. Just a sad, pathetic one at best.

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113

By realizing what she has been doing was wrong, turning against the Jailer and either dying for the cause (the side we’re on) or making some sort of sacrifice that benefits everyone else at a great personal cost to her would be the easiest way. Just killing her and leaving her sad and pathetic is not part of a redemption story. That’s the whole “Let’s just punish her!” with extra steps.

She doesn’t have to be forgiven by anyone to receive her own redemption, should that be the path they take her down. In a way I’d look at it in a similar way to Anakin after 20-30 years as Darth Vader. His final act in life was to throw the Emperor down a energy shaft and he died a hero, but as far as the rest of the Galaxy was concerned, he would only be remembered as Darth Vader. But he, and the few who were there, would at least remember that final sacrifice.

114

But that isn’t enough to make up for what she did, not by a long shot. Her attempting to redeem herself would have to be framed exactly that, an attempt that won’t be enough.

I’m saying, that if she gets a redempting arc, then it must be framed in such a way that it’s very clear that she can never make up for what she did. Doesn’t matter if she kills the Jailer singlehandedly, she still can’t wipe the blood from her hands, nor distance herself from her crimes. She will try to redeem herself despite knowing full well that all that awaits her is damnation nontheless. That is her penance, to accept whatever punishment awaits her after her one selfless act after a lifetime of selfish ones.

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115

Vader throwing the Emperor down a energy shaft didn’t make up for the multiple planets that got scourged under the Empire.

But redemption is not about somehow “making up” for every single one of your past mistakes. It’s about acknowledging those mistakes and doing what you can.

The legitimate strive to atone is what’s important.

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116

I enjoy seeing everyone’s ideal of redemption.

Redemption is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

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117

And if I’ll be honest Vaders redemption was rushed and shoddy. I would prefer something else for Sylvanas.

Yes, and good luck selling that after she gleefully sent an untold ammount of souls to hell. Because someone who would do such a thing, would not feel the regret necessary.
They simply won’t be able to portray her regret as authentic after what she has done. This isn’t a matter of “sorry I made a mistake :slight_smile:”. This is someone who must be utterly crushed by their guilt, destroyed both within and without, her every sin weighin on her mind. It would have to be a massive, and I mean massive, personality shift, if they wanted to sell her as actually regretting her actions and her trying to atone for them. And all of this without it coming off as an attempt for her to escape punishment.
In short, her guilt must be portrayed in such a way that eternal torment in the maw is preferable. That is the level of guilt she must display. And I don’t think Blizzard can do that.

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118

It would be a better redemption than that kid from The Strain. Gosh that was so bad it would make almost any sylvanas redemption arc good. (The rest of the show The Strain is awesome. Just not the little kid and how he is ‘redeemed’)

119

You guys are forgetting the most important thing

What does Blizzard think is “the rule of cool” in this story

Nothing else matters but that; genocide, feelings, nothing.

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120

I’m not sure about rushed. It was telegraphed in ESB and concluded in RotJ. That’s two thirds of the trilogy.

:pancakes:

121

I think I agree with most of what your saying here.

There’s nothing wrong with her being redeemed, but she has to want it, and earn it. “Being right all along! You were fools to doubt me!” isn’t a redemption.

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