Lets ignore the fact that stealing is wrong regardless of your reason, had Thrall bother to investigate/promise he would bring the perpatrators of a LIVE SKINNING of night elves to justice, the night elves would have trade again with the Horde. But he didnt and no court in our world would every consider Invasion of land for resource as justifiable.
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No, the battle for the Barrens started AFTER deathwing popped up from the ground.
We literally send ships against each other and have spies sneak into each others Forts!
The Alliance had the agree for peace with THRALL! Can you at least be consistent. And it was mentioned time and time again, Garrosh wanted the resources the night elves. He was a common thief/bully.
No, they stopped after wrathgate, restarted it after the Lich King’s fall, and ended it again after the Twilight’s Hammer attack.
Thrall at the time was thought to be leader of the Horde/someone influential in it. And even then Varian was relatively soft as it was in Shattering. Especially considering he had Anduin by his side, Anduin and Jaina were his closes advisors and both didnt want him to go to war!
yes, this don’t mean theramore didn’t attack the horde before
exactly what a skirmish is, not a war, thats why in Legion we attack the legion together, and they didn’t even mention wod.
Again, lies the alliance didn’t want peace with thrall, Varian didn’t want neither the Night elves
The reason Thrall put Garrosh its because he would act, and would not bow down to any human
mention and empty words mean literally nothing, if they want peace, they would have, cause thrall in wow was a pecemonger
They didn’t, there is no source about the trade going back
Neither in any place, say they stop after the incident
The meeting was a peace summit trying to reduce the tension between the factions
if the trade was going on, there is no reason for the meeting.
the orcs were starving, the night elves with their arrognce chose to not trade using something it was not their fault for excuse, don’t try to put the situation with just “common bully/thief” cause the situation was much more deeper than that.
->the alliance wanted peace with the horde, they want peace with thrall!!11!!!
also alliance:
->lets imprison thrall, the leader of the horde and take him into stormwind to display as an animal
WAAAAAAAAO
you just contradict yourself.
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Keep in mind, the Twilight’s Hammer’s ploy wouldn’t have even held any water were it not for the preexisting state of Horde troops already routinely raiding night elf lands. Never was it Garrosh’s outright contention that they weren’t intruding into Ashenvale and killing elves; he just took umbrage at the Horde being accused of senseless atrocities like the whole skinning alive/dismembering thing.
The orcs also frankly bring their resource shortages upon themselves by constantly depleting and poisoning the lands they already control. Somehow Azeroth’s native races have consistently managed to persist for millennia without reducing every other acre of their territories to a strip-mined, deforested, polluted, plagued wasteland, but the orcs (aided in no small part by the goblins) in particular can’t seem to even operate without laying waste to what they already have, at which point they start looking to steal more from their neighbors. For all the reverence they’re supposed to have for their shamans, they turn a deaf ear and stop caring about preserving life through balance at the drop of a hat. It’s frankly an entirely predictable symptom of the dysfunction in modern orcish society and technology; they’re a people who became militarily industrialized before they’d even invented basic large-scale sustainable agrarianism, so by default they’re incapable of sustaining an ever-growing population without outside help.
Case in point, one of the big problems Baine had with Garrosh early on was that Garrosh used his position as Warchief to do the very same basic thing to the orcs’ own tauren allies after he’d allowed the waters around Orgrimmar to become too polluted to drink or water crops. The orcs are glad to burn away every last resource they have building weapons and feeding troops, because they assume the civilian population can be supported by just taking from their enemies and allies alike.
So yeah, the orcs needed resources. And they needed them because despite having access to the means of producing such resources themselves without relying entirely upon trade and conquest (and lest we forget, when the night elves did trade with them, the orcs resented every moment of having to do so, wishing they could just march in and take it all), they stubbornly ignored any of their allies who actually knew how to do so because when forced to choose, most orcs would seemingly rather have ten Demolishers and a poisoned water table than ten thousand acres of healthy crops and fresh water to drink.
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The night elves have, more than any other race barring the draenei, been the most willing to work with the Horde. They gave the Horde lumber for years even with the Warsong being Warsong, up until the Wrathgate.
They brought Tauren and Trolls onto the Cenarion Circle despite being at war with the Horde at the time, and were the ones who re-taught the Tauren druidism in the first place.
When the Scarab War was happening, they allowed Horde to use their outposts in Silithus, and followed an orc, Saurfang, as supreme commander of the Might of Kalimdor.
The night elves agreed to the Horde keeping all the lands they’d taken, Azshara and Stonetalon, for the sake of peace and to permanently solve the Horde’s lumber problem.
Tyrande worked with the Horde character in Val’sharah, and the night elves fought alongside the blood elves to free Suramar.
There isn’t a single instance of night elves actively leaving their lands to attack Horde lands except in the Blood Elf starting zones, twelve years ago, and during the Siege of Orgrimmar. They’ve consistently given multiple options to the Horde for peace, only for the Horde to take that and then continue attacking anyway.
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they trade
and only when they were not busy attacking the caravans and killing the orcs
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Give me an example that doesn’t involve the Horde attacking first or actively being on Kaldorei land.
Hellscream shot-story, when Garrosh ask to a female orc, she tell Garrosh that the night elves constantly attack the caravans, they were not attack first, just delivering the resources.
Then again, tis just to show that night elves are not pearls with kind souls;
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Where were these caravans? Where were they going?
Going to argus, where did you think they were going?
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And that the Horde didnt attack Theramore either. Don’t forget we have Smiling Jim as proof.
exactly what a skirmish is, not a war, thats why in Legion we attack the legion together, and they didn’t even mention wod.
And the Battle for Lordearon(in Wrath) was just that, a battle not outright war with the faction. Hell, we even went to a tournament!
That is what Thrall believed, and honestly considering everything that has happened we know he is faliable.
A peacemonger who let the Warsong Outsider run around Ashenvale and didn’t bother to see exactly what Sylvanas was doing in her kingdom.
Thrall literally talks about how trade just stopped at about the time the Horde had returned from northrend!
The trade stopped precisely because some night elves were skinned alived!
- No one is obliged to give anyone anything in this world. Taking something that does not belong to even, even if you had a good reason for it/was taking from the rich has never been an excuse!
- The Alliance did not not know it was the Twilight Hammer. But Thrall, in his infinite wisdom did NOTHING to try to find out what happened/prosecute who was truly behind it. Hell, Cairne himself believed it was Garrosh’s fault!
The Alliance wanted different things at different times. They wanted peace BEFORE Thrall stupidly put Garrosh on Ogrimmar Throne. They wanted a leverage AFTER considering peace with Garrosh was impossible.
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So they were going through night elf land? Because that doesn’t refute my point at all. If the caravans were going through night elf lands, and in this case after the Wrathgate and when the Horde was already attacking, of course they would attack caravans. If they were going through Ashenvale, of course.
because it was necessary, or the orcs would starve
if the night elves want pace, they would start trading and stop killing then and their caravans, but they didn’t want peace.
Because wrathgate duh
the trade was already LOST, the meeting was a peace submit to see fi the trade was going back.
neither the orcs are obligated to satrve, such kindness for a peaceful race.
youa re in position to talk like, that, when you re straving and see your children doing the same, with no options, people steal, do would put in the electric chair like other criminals because they steal food?
lmao
Trhall was already off at time he could do nothing, dear lord
its not horde responsibility to find who did
,
sure
but you just tell they still though he was warchief, thats why they capture him, how they knew that garrosh was warchief if they believe it was still thrall?
you are again, contradicting yourself.
they are attacking caravans who are not armed soldiers, delivering supplies to a race who is starving in the desert.
The night elves deserve everything Garrosh did to then.
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Ah yes, stupid night elves for living in a forest, and for stopping trading lumber when war broke out, and for actively defending their lands and the trees. Surely the orcs are more than capable of responsibly logging the land. It’s not like the moment they got lumber they were using it to fuel the war machine, no, they wanted to build houses. It’s not like the Horde could have gotten lumber from Northrend, once the Lich King was defeated, or maybe shipped it from Tirisfal.
Or Stranglethorn.
Or hey, maybe Quel’thalas? Lots of trees there, and the blood elves are allies.
If the night elves ‘deserve’ everything that was done to them, because they attacked lumber caravans in their land, cutting their trees (yes I read the story just now, a single throwaway line), then I’d hate to see what the Horde deserves for what it’s done. If that’s how it works.
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If the Horde wanted the night elves to trade, they would have found out who was killing elves in their name and skinning them alive.
The Shattering makes it clear, trade occured AGAIN and only stopped AFTER the whole Twilight incident.
Again, find if the Horde had found the killers, the night elves would have trade again.
I would have them put in prison especially if their thief led to the death of other people. More importantly, considering you can play WoW I assume your middle class. If someone came into your home, stole your PC sold it to feed their family(and maybe shot and kill a family member in the process) would you be magnamious?(two can play the emotionally charged narrative card)
And it is not the responsibility of the night elves to feed the Horde. If the Horde wants to bite the hand that was helping, that is on them.
If Thrall can give the Warchief mantle away, he could take it.
The night elves were attacking people who were in their border! Something, Garrosh did in Northrend, he literally killed a bunch of shipwreck sailors of the Alliance because they got blown off course and drifted into Horde waters.
And considering what you just said, the Horde deserved everything to them either! Particularly having Garrosh terrorize its own civilian population!
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At this point, it is clear Syegfryed has chosen to ignore confirmed facts. Don’t waste your time.
Except, the Alliance is not a government. If the Horde disappeared the Alliance would essentially not be a thing. The Alliance is a group of independent nations that are friendly to each other and have committed to the mutual defense of each other. Without the threat of the Horde, it would just be a bunch of nations friendly to each other.
So, not saying Blizzard is going to end the factions. I think there is a fair chance they are going to. But, only fair, and far from certain. But, if nations were to peel off from the Horde and start negotiating peace themselves, then each nation would start interacting individually with others. At that point, the Alliance would probably still exist in name. But, for most practical purposes it would not really be a thing.
It could lead to some interesting interactions. For instance, the Tauren would probably have a decent relationship with the Night Elves, but the Orcs would not. If Calia does end up leading the Forsaken, ironically they may end up closer to Stormwind than other nations. It could make it a much more complex world.
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they didn’t get just lumber, they also get hunt, food
It was not possible to get in those distant places in a way to provide for all the horde, if it was, thrall would do it.,
the night elves deserve because they are arrogant xenophobic jerks, who cry about sacred trees that they don’t usem and could regrow in matter of seconds, they just could not ature the orc presence in their land and use all the excuses they could find
nd i rly don’t care, the alliance can hate the horde more and more imo
why? its not their problem, why the night elves didn’t search too instead of blaming someone else? always somebody else fault isn’t?
say the page, im with the book right here, they didn’t said tht rade started gain and only stopped after the wilight incident
The sole reason Garrosh start to enter more and more into their territory was precisely because they stop the trade, AND they start the peace submit trying to turn down the tensions.
thts BS, they would not
thats just a flse quivalence
yous aid no matter what a crime is a crime and should be punished, simple you don’t punish someone because they steal food for someone who don’t need it, and will never use it, and the sole reason they would not give to you tis because they are arrogant.
you are the one talking about skinning alive, blablabla.
neve said it was, its just come to bite then in the behind
you re just, not making sense anymore.
such kindrace, no matter if they are starving, they are in OUR BORDERS, we want peace, but this is to far
you guys are making me like what sylvanus did, stop pls
i gladly take it, it was worthy.
i mean you said a non fact, get called out, don’t try to refute or anything and come back saying this? don’t play the pigeon chess
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Here’s a few things the OP seems to forget…
One, Jaina had a problem with deserters who wanted to pay back the Horde.
Secondly, you can’t use Theramore troops in Horde areas as justification when the Warsong have been attacking Ashenvale long before Theramore was even built and are still doing it to this day. The fact that Thrall turned a blind eye to it doesn’t make it ok, and if anything provides justification for Theramore troops being in Horde areas since the Orcs were blatantly ignoring the peace already.
Finally, Jaina only started building up Theramore because Garrosh broke the truce by launching fully fledged assaults upon Alliance territory and made no attempts to hide the fact that he wanted to take over all of Kalimdor. She might have been a peace advocate, but the Horde had initiated a war and she had a responsibility both to the Alliance and her people to take steps to protect them.
So no, Garrosh started a war that never needed to happen due to greed and an inflated sense of racial/cultural superiority. He pretty much did everything wrong, and the OP’s attempt to rationalize all of it is one of the reasons we now have Garrosh 2.0 sitting on the Warchief’s throne and doing even worse things to the tune of ‘justified!’ by far too many of the Horde playerbase.
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It’s their land, they can do what they want with it. Fact of the matter is Garrosh wanted it and felt it should belong to the Horde, so they invaded to try and take it from them. They are very much in the wrong here.
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im not taking way their rights, just saying fact, i know its their lands and their trees and they do what they want
The orcs also had their own axes and do what they want with then