The War Within Development Feedback: Priest

Classes Priest
41

That’s “a solution” but I don’t think that’s the solution blizzard wants because if you give it some thought…

Most utility for classes are now located in the class tree. Shadow having our silence and defensive cooldowns located in shadows spec tree is a bit of a one off, but upon granting Shadow these spells without having to spend a talent point on them in either tree would imo cause a greater uproar throughout the rest of the classes and they will be demanding to have their interrupts and defensive also be baseline because they set the precedent for Shadow to have theirs baseline.

So no matter what, 1 group of people will be left feeling slighted and in the concern of damage control, it just makes more sense for 1 spec (Shadow) to get the short end of the stick like we always seem to be left with rather than upset the rest of the playerbase.

We are a punching bag in game and out of the game it seems. Our fate seemed to be irrevocably inevitable at this point as it’s sad yes, but doesn’t make it any less true imo.

Priests are the most delicate class to handle because of both…

  • Only Dual healing class
  • Only Dual theming class with themes being diametrically opposing forces.

We need to be treated with utmost care and respect of such facts. Clearly, this is not the case and as such we suffer ever more because of it.

With the inception of the class talent tree, we will still have issues finding commonality between all specs regardless. So if you add another Shadow magic spec in to the mix, it just gets more difficult, more complicated to strike some semblance of cohesion.

I would agree that for the cohesive argument, it would be best to split out the Holy/Shadow aspect. But that cannot be done in this game, perhaps a Wow 2 of some sort.

But there is no way they will take a class that has currently access to both holy and magic spells and toolkit and force a moment in time with a patch/expansion event that makes you choose to go Holy or Shadow and forevermore you are unable to go back and are stuck with only one or the other.

Then you would have a Holy caster class with 2 healing specs and nothing more and a Shadow caster class with 2 DPS specs and nothing more… unless they go beyond that level of work and add another spec for each split to allow Holy to have a Holy based caster DPS spec and this cultist dark magic spec a healing spec?

No matter how you try and slice it, it gets messy real quick and a hurry.

So no way will they ever split the class.

Also I highly doubt they would ever just add a 4th spec because I think we see the issues already of having 2 similar specs existing in a class already with Holy and Discipline priest alongside the red headed step child that is Survival hunter as they wanted it to play differently than Marksman and make it melee based instead and now no one likes it … or at least it’s statistically insignificant.

I think the best option is what they got now, 1 base spec tree and with hero paths, they can push and pull what they need to give that unique flavor and gameplay style to the selected hero path thus granting players gameplay style choice while remaining the same spec.

42

Well, in the interest of fairness, why not give them the same “deal” priests got? If they can decide which two specs for their class don’t get to have an interrupt at all, then they can have a baseline interrupt, too.

It would only be fair, really.

43

The response to that scenario would just go back to the Power Word: GFYS they posted during Dragonflight beta which just listed a bunch of our requests and all shot down on the basis of…

  • Bad for PvP
  • Other classes already have similar utility, so Priests are not allowed to have.

So once again, we are just left in the dumpster because someone needs to be it seems.

Priests continually loose utility while everyone else gets new utility as the expansions go on. It’s been this way for a long while now.

5 Likes
44

I wonder if the priest dev team even looks that these forums tbh.

45

Sure, every potential solution has its problems to figure out. But I’d rather explore the problems of a light based priest with a light based dps spec and a cultist with some of its own more cohesive stuff (even if that means figuring out the problems of a third spec or not having one or whatever).

But yes, unrealistic, so I would rather at least have some type of solution for pre legion shadow fans and legion shadow fans (and those of us who actually enjoy BOTH of those playstyles at their best, not our current half measures that no one likes), and a fourth spec seems the most likely way to make that happen (even if, again, that still means there will be problems to figure out because there always will be just as there are now).

46

I personally don’t see a 4th spec happening for priest. There is no logical reason to do so.

Guardian and Feral was split out because it caused major friction in you have 2 roles into 1 spec. Prior to guardian, feral could offtank and then DPS as feral as needed which made them very valuable and effective. So instead of making tanking it feral DPS less effective, they instead split the roles into separate specs.

But this is not the case for Priest. Priest already has healer and damage role. So splitting Shadow out would not be a tank or a healer, it would just be another Shadow magic based DPS.

So the idea of a 4th spec just seems a waste of time, especially when the Hero Paths are essentially the answer to this split gameplay.

The question really becomes then, what should the Shadow spec talent tree look like? or rather what should change from how it is now? That is where the design changes should focus on, not a different spec.

If you had a different spec for arguments sake, we would need to make them both uniquely different to justify an additional spec. So then the question becomes… what would this “Void” themed spec look like?

Before the idea of a 4th spec centered around this nebulas “Void” concept even becomes an idea that is wholly separate from prior to Legion Shadow, it would need to have come structural basis to build from.

Simply saying “Void” is not enough foundation to work with.

We need to know how it works differently from Shadow and I have not seen enough examples as to how that could both be interesting and unique from Shadow while standing on its own.

I already broke this down in another thread, but essentially we are only missing 4 interactions from Legion and those imo are not enough to construct a wholly new spec.

So there is a Void (pun intended) that needs to be filled to justify a fully fledged Void themed spec.

47

I agree with your entire statement so far.

this is the BIG QUESTION that has yet to be properly executed.
Not sure if this expansion will do that as well. I think we might be looking into another expansion before we can get there at this rate. But lets hope that’s not the case.

1 Like
48

I certainly understand you’re not for it, but that doesn’t make it illogical. We have many classes with multiple dps specs, a class with only two specs, a class with four. I understand you don’t feel like different groups of people having two very different fantasies for what shadow is now, and two very different core playstyles that they’ve enjoyed is enough to justify another spec, but it’s certainly still a logical suggestion (even if unlikely to happen).

I don’t see how the hero trees are an answer. They are more about bringing two specs together, and one of the main issues is that bringing our spec together with two light based specs is very challenging. This also doesn’t solve the other big issue of people looking for two fundamentally different core playstyles.

And that final part (two different core playstyles) is really where the struggle has been. It’s not about the amount of interactions, it’s the core of how you play. Playing a builder/spender is very, very different than the cyclical gameplay of Legion. Those are different styles of play altogether at their core. They may use primarily the same abilities, but how you would need to balance those abilities is vastly different depending on which core playstyle you are playing, and the flow and feel of what you do is very different.

So yes, this theoretical “Void” spec would absolutely need development as a new spec with some of its own stuff. That would be new, not just all iterations of previous stuff. However there is a play design to it that is fundamentally different than the builder/spender of shadow.

But Shadow can be a well designed, fun spec with multiple variations via talents purely using things we had before legion ever came around. I believe that can and should be done, and I don’t believe that needs to or should be done without also providing for the other fantasy and playstyle that another portion of the fanbase has desire for.

1 Like
49

Legion made shadow this completely different playing spec compared to anything shadow was previously.

But that was absolutely inundated with issues that caused massive swings of extremes troughs and valleys.

Then in BFA, losing the artifact weapon severely crippled the spec since SO MUCH was built around the weapon similar to Demon Hunter. It wasn’t until much later when you stacked all your Azerite gear and Essences before you can actually get some semblance of a coherent and workable spec.

Then in Shadowlands alpha/beta, shadow was an absolute disaster upon loosing all of BFA borrowed powers and needed quick fixes to just make it not fall over on itself. Fixes in the form of no longer draining insanity, Voidform being able to be casted on demand and the re-introduction of Devouring Plague to spend insanity on instead in addition to other new talents just so it can function without borrowed powers.

So again, I pose the question… what would this “Void” theme spec look like? How would it play?

Because it is not without reason that from legion onwards to dragonflight that the drain mechanic and all the other features that debuted in Legion for shadow have gone away or pushed to the sidelines. It just simply didn’t work despite multiple patches and expansions with adjustments in order to do so.

Because they tried to adjust Shadow during its Voidform run so many times, I would wager that no one really knows what is the best direction for this “Void” theme to go in as everyone that did like it, liked it in differing stages as well as not understanding the reasoning as to why it ended up in that stage and why again it changed and moved on. It wasn’t as much a gameplay issue as it was a balancing issue imo.

I personally didn’t like the gameplay in Legion which is why I abandoned my Priest and played the new thing being a Demon Hunter. But after a while I can see that the cracks I noticed from the beginning were starting to show up in the data with the constant swings of power and more and more people being dissatisfied with the gameplay. So then I think it was a combination of gameplay issues as well as balancing issues that lead to the abandonment of what Legion brought forth and go back to a more traditional style that shadow played fine with for over a decade prior.

So back to the “Void” theme. I find it difficult to pin a direction of a particular style of gameplay that is solely different from traditional shadow but at the same time isn’t completely busted to even attempt to try and create a brand new spec for.

If they went a new direction completely that didn’t follow the legion and BFA model of the draining mechanic, would that be enough? If so then that’s not much different than what we have now. Because based on the recent history, I find it improbable for the drain mechanic to come back as a central focus for the entire spec to built around as again… that already happened with the legion revamp and we would be back to that mess alongside all its issues.

This is why I don’t see a need for a wholly new spec as the people wanting “Void” can mean so many different things that it’s a nebulas idea as I already stated.

Some might just want spells with the word void in it. Some might want visuals with some cosmic void look to it and some might want the gameplay that has been tried and failed for 4+ years. But none of that separately or combined is enough to make a whole new spec out of that is different enough from traditional shadow.

I’m interested in ideas of how this “void” spec would play but I don’t think anyone can really provide such a level of detail to illustrate that concept while navigating the pitfalls of why the Legion and BFA drain mechanic failed and to avoid repeating those same mistakes.

Edit:

I think the best “workable?” Example of a drain mechanic is Breath of Sindragosa for frost Death Knight. But that is a choice gameplay style built into the talent tree. It doesn’t need an entire spec built around it to function.

I think if anything, that example could work for shadow. I just don’t see an entire spec centered on that type of gameplay happening.

50

I coukd think of a number of ways to split the two but just picking from what already exists give shadow the DoTs, dark ascension and tanky elements of the spec, fade/dispersion/etc. Shadow also keeps Mind Blast and Flay as part of its filler. Allow it to have its vamp embrace and touch mechanics of old that allow to to heal/ restore resources to its allies like a cult leader stealing from non-believers to give to his cult.

Then give the void spec the more mental/psychic elements such as binding enemies together with a new debuff, since shadow would keep vamp touch, and then void does direct damage via Mind Spike and Void Torrent all the void summons, even the new void rifts in TWW. Additionally the spec coukd have more of a focus on mobility being able to jump between linked enemies. Giving the spec an over concept of psychically tormenting its enemies with horrors of the void until it breaks.

This is very rough but you can already start to see clear differences between how the two would play and what they would focus on.

1 Like
51

shadow spec is pretty close to being something.

It just needs a focused direction.

Splitting the spec in two will just cause more harm than good.
The spec needs to be allowed to evolve properly into a single theme.

Spitting it up to fit nostalgia desire will just add even more issues to this spec. Shadow and void themes are very similar to each other. There are just too many iterations trying to take root.

These past iterations need to take the back seat so a more streamlined modern one can take root. that’s it.

We don’t have to lose everything for the redesign. We just need to let go of a lot of fillers and unnecessarily.

I hope the hero talent tree will force them to properly redesign this tree and get it in the right direction.

One of my BIGGEST wishes is for them to redesign this VOidform/Dark Accension node.
Its Awful. So bad. I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate this node area. Redesign these abilities to one and make it more fun to use. thank you.

1 Like
52

It already is something, and absolute incoherent mess of a spec that is trying to mix an old school vamperic theme with a new school psychic void horror theme and neither really work together.

If they are determined to keep them splitting those two themes would allow the designers to focus and streamline them far more instead of trying to mess together two things that really don’t fit each other.

1 Like
53

splitting it will cause more issues because both themes use much of the original shadow priest concept. The core still strongly exists for the two.

that’s why you stop already with introducing the past and let the future unravel itself for once.

Let them properly design this class without Demanding old iterations that are doing more harm than good.

I have yet seem them do this. the most we got was Shadowlands when they were undoing BFA and legion’s design at last second. Yet we still hold onto VOIDFORM, which is a BIG mistake altogether. The surrender to madness talent and their fixation on this BS was soo annoying.

54

What you don’t seem to understand is “VOIDFORM” IS the new and all the old stuff is Vampiric Touch, SW:P, Mind Blast, Mind Flay, Vampiric Embrace, and Shadowform. Those have literally all been around since vanilla with the exception of Vampiric Touch which was introduced in TBC.

Voidform that thing you hate so much IS the new element of the spec, and they are trying to hamfist this new element together with the old and it does not work.

What you are saying, although you don’t realize it, is that they should stop adding the new void elements and instead go back to the old style of shadow.

What I am saying is both have value, but they don’t belong together. Your way only you win. My way both you who enjoys the shadow elements and everyone else who enjoys the void elements win. You are literally the poster boy for why this split NEEDS to happen.

4 Likes
55

If you think void form is enough to make a second spec, then you are misunderstanding yourself.

I don’t want void concept to be removed. I think it fits perfectly fits fine with shadow.

CONCEPT and DESIGN are two different things. This interpretation/design of VOID isn’t the only one that will ever exist in a universe.

I want the concept to evolve and be reinterpreted. Period. Simple as that.

There should have never been a voidform. We have shadowform and that should be it because, at the end of the day, this is shadow spec. However, that doesn’t mean we should not have any void abilities.

Voidform and Insanity are the only things I wish were removed. I do however want to keep the rest and have it be reinterpreted to fit shadow better as we redesign shadow spec.

What I do love about void
The tentacles, the void torrent, the void minons. the void blast being added, the rift is cool too.
Not much more to add because there isn’t so much of a “void” going on.

Shadow spec:
Mindspike – Don’t like it at least this current design. Ether redesign or remove. Its current design makes no sense and it just makes mindflay go hello?

Dark Ascension is just another void form that doesn’t fully work with all the abilities. Redesign or remove as well.

56

infact…

I am honestly surprised that voidform wasn’t removed from the shadow tree and added onto voidweaver for both disc and shadow to use and activate the talent tree. Of course, voidform would have to be redesigned, as it should be.

Would have been a better choice IMO.

1 Like
57

Someone is misunderstanding themselves but it isn’t me. What you don’t understand is that without Voidform shadow doesn’t have tentacles, or void minions, or void blast, hell even Void torrent didn’t exist until Voidform.

All of that are Void abilities, and all of that belongs in a completely desperate tree from Shadow.

What does belong in shadow? All of the DoTs, Mind Sear, Shadow Crash, and abilities that actually fit the spriest theme of being a damage over time mage who heals and restores resources based on that damage. That is the spriest identity since freaking vanilla, continued in TBC, Wraith, Cata, MoP, etc all the way to Legion when the spec got the void abilities mashed into it when they don’t fit.

Mashing all those void abilities that you love into the spec made about as much sense as adding a bunch of +damage with bow abilities into an arms spec just because “arms means weapons.” It doesn’t belong, it will never belong and it desperately needs to be it’s own thing before either Shadow or Void will ever make sense again.

4 Likes
58

really now?

Im casting void torrent and tentacles without it. infact, Holy and disc can also use VOID SHIFT, a void spell. Oh my stars!

This isn’t legion… that ended long time ago. its called, REDESIGN. because concepts and be REDESIGNED over and over again.

all voidform really does now is activate your mastery and give you voidbolt. Its practically nothing anymore.
Shadow has been redesigned to tap into void without it. AS IT SHOULD.

If all these past expansions were soo good, then it should have overtaken live already. The fact is, its the past. Its nothing but nostalgia. once that leaves, people will get tired of it. I for one couldn’t deal with it too long and went back to live.

59

Since you have trouble understanding I’ll explain. None of those abilities, including the Void Shift you brought up, existed until Legion when we got VOIDFORM and the spec took the whole void left turn into “doesn’t know what the hell it wants to be ville” and we get what it is now.

None of those spells exist without Voidform and Surrender to Madness builds we got in Legion. Those two things alone where so iconic to spriest in that expansion blizzard has been trying to make the whole void thing work while keeping all the old shadow stuff and it’s simply a disaster.

Here is the thing, I’m asking for a redesign of BOTH elements so people can get what they want, those that want old shadow and those that want new void.

You are asking blizzard to hamfist everything together like they have been doing but just delete voidform/dark ascension which will do absolutely nothing to actually correct the issues the spec has.

This is false, Shadow has never tapped into the void without voidform. What you are describing is just further proof of how attempting to hamfist together void and shadow just makes a convoluted mess of a spec with an identity crisis leading to people not understanding what is shadow and what is void.

Blizzard hasn’t been giving us numbers of who is just playing Classic and who is just playing live. The reality of that, however, is Vanilla was likely bigger than live on it’s rerelease but fell off due to getting little content. SoD would be debatable. The rest blizzard royally screwed over by adding paid level boosts doing nothing to botters and other nonsense which caused people like me who loved TBC to refuse to play such garbage.

None of that has anything to do with the nature of the spec and which is or isn’t better. At the end of the day you think the convoluted mess of a spec can be fixed by removing voidform and dark ascension when the reality is that does nothing to fix it’s identity crisis.

3 Likes
60

The best fix would honestly be letting a single dev who plays and enjoys shadow make something with a singular vision without red tape from higher ups or excessive rose tinted interference from the community.

6 Likes