Do you know who I wish would face consequences for his actions… Kel’thuzad… but he hasn’t atoned either and he’s done a lot worse than Sylvanas.
Didn’t this whole thing get gaslighted into being from that one thread that Shambalah or whatever his name was anyway?
And nobody really cared about Sylvanas killing people until it was Night Elves, since elven fanbases are larger and more vocal than werewolf ones.
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So, we are in agreement. Kel’thuzad AND Sylvanas should both face the consequences of their actions. Or are you suggesting otherwise? And of the two, I’d wager Kel’s death is coming up quicker. Sylvanas will probably survive her encounter in the next raid.
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I’m not fighting with you again over this. You keep saying the same things over and over again. Stop fishing for validation. Your take on Sylvanas and the Forsaken is wrong.
Ahh, so we don’t agree. Kel’thuzad should face the consequences of his actions, but Sylvie shouldn’t.
Because you believe her to be an edgy Tsundere waifu who just loves her people she’s discarded like worthless garbage twice; while never actually being given a motivation to truly start caring for them beyond her need to use them. They’re just her Bulwark Against the Infinite". “Its just an Alliance of convenience”. “Its not like she really likes them or anything … BAKA!” Sylvie turns away and blushes furiously.
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that’s a lot of projection. Are you okay? do you need a waifu pillow? you are a little bit obsessed. even an obsession with her as the villian in your fancanon you can still have a waifu pillow. no one is stopping you.
I propose a thought experiment; what would Sylvanas need to do for you to say that she has officially gone too far?
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It’s like a video critique I saw that was posted to me on the Story Forum. To summarize, Blizzard is making the mistake of writing stories for a scene they like, when they should be writing scenes for a story.
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Personally, I cared about people Sylvanas had killed or enslaved in Vanilla and the raw deal the Gileans were getting (Genn abandoning the fight against the demons to go after Sylvanas in Legion was an in-universe bad idea, but in-character for him).
For me, holding the Burning of Teldrassil over Sylvanas isn’t because the victims are Night Elves (I like Night Elves, but would oppose it all the same if she’d done that to Ironforge or Stormwind), it’s because it was an atrocity and Sylvanas gets whitewashed and shielded from consequences by the writers. Sylvanas had won the battle, she burned Teldrassil out of reasons that kept getting retconned (spite, then terrorism, then feeding souls to the Jailer).
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hes dead. he got killed three times, and now soon a fourth. Arthas killed him first time for the plague. We killed him in naxxramas and he came back and we killed him for good in the living realms. Now, he is being set up to be permakilled with no return.
Yes but he didn’t got to Revendreth to atone. He’s happily causing trouble in Maldraxxus. Death isn’t punishment for the undead. Unless it’s specifically stated that Kel’thuzad suffered in some capacity than he has nothing on Sylvanas.
Sylvanas has been tortured in the Maw. Her pain, suffering is tangible. His is not.
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Blatant lie
She has been torturing innocents in the maw instead
Did you even read Edge of Night Ethriel? I’m guessing not.
To be honest that was my opinion as well.
Watching Kingsmourne, we see Anduin walking up and we all know he didn’t just “walk free” from the Maw. When we left him, it was either “join or be made to serve” - clearly one of those actions transpired. And this was a pretty pivotal moment from all the cinematics they put into it. Yet we don’t see the outcome.
When we see Anduin under Jailer control it isn’t shocking to us (though the actual video was pretty cool). He has no power in his situation, he’s literally going to end up in the same position regardless of his choice. Initially I didn’t think about it, but them skipping that aspect - with the intro to it and no conclusion to that point - seemed to indicate one of two rationales.
- The video design/length limited them and they focused on the aftermath. It wouldn’t be due to shock value because the inherent shock value of seeing Anduin transformed would be pretty high.
- They still wanted to leave it vague on what occurred there, leaving open the possibility that Sylvanas forced him, Sylvanas balked and the Jailer forced him, or Sylvanas and Anduin conspired in some way.
I think that the later moment in the video, where Anduin delivers the key and Sylvanas seems to show some sort of contemplation/doubt actually becomes more poignant if they decided to work together. Under those circumstances, her look of concern is about what Anduin is being forced to do (similar to what she’s been coerced into doing) and what it is forcing him to undergo, and whether it is worth it to achieve their end goal.
I actually think it would be somewhat consistent as well. In “No More Lies” she actually says, “But through the Jailer, control of our fate will at last be possible” instead of “But with the Jailer, control of our fate will at last be possible” - indicating in some ways that it’s the actions of the Jailer, rather than the Jailer himself, that are leading to the possibility of free will. I think that word choice intentionally leaves open the possibility of Sylvanas’ actions being more nuanced than simply serving her new, evil, WoW Satan master.
With that said, I don’t think Blizzard will go that direction (sadly). They’ll probably write off her doubt in the video as, “Sylvanas now thinks the Jailer may in fact be evil,” which is a tremendously stupid character development because it insinuates Sylvanas is colossally stupid, undermining what is probably the only consistent underpinning of her character (her cunning) in the wildly different portrayals of her.
I’m not disagreeing that there is room for characters like that. I would merely point out that I think there’s also room for “anti-heroes” that undertake actions that aid the greater good, yet make us question whether the ends justify the means.
If we halt Arthas’ story at just the Culling of Stratholme and pretend it annihilated the Scourge - we could easily ask if the greater good was worth the sacrifice of the uninfected citizens of Stratholme or if there were other actions Arthas could have taken. It is an interesting consideration and is a lot better narratively than, “Oh, Sylvanas just raised the murder level to 11, because she could now, and her previously unknown master for the last decade wanted it.”
Actual canon. Read Edge of Night. She was tortured which is what led to her pact with the Jailer (either via the Val’kyr or in some unwritten meeting due to the vagaries of the giant retcon adding the Jailer as a character, but whatever).
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They don’t have an answer for you, because there isn’t a point of no return so long as there is just the tiniest bit of wiggle room to shower Sylvanas with either: A) The benefit of the doubt; or B) Only seeing her through the lens of a victim; rather than BOTH the victim that she is AND the abuser that she has become. It is why it is SO important that Sylvanas be validated in what she has done, even if that means coming at the expense of every single character, theme, and faction opposing her right now. In in order to preserve their image of her. At least that dude Sham admitted they just liked Sylvie as a villain and for her “YAS QUEEN!” factor.
And yes, I know that is a bit rich coming from me who loves the WC3 Horde. But at least I can admit that that vision of the Faction I joined has been damaged, likely beyond repair. And rather, what frustrates me most about that reality is that the Saurfang cinematics clearly show that Blizz knew enough about what the Horde faction was supposed to represent to at least create absurdly expensive lip-service for it; they just in no way let those themes, characters, or functionality deter them from using the faction as a plot-device to settup another future expac and villain. Or how they constantly use the WC3 vision of the Faction to save it from the consequences of their “Old Horde” fun, but truly seem to have absolutely zero interest in actually writing that vision.
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Occasionally I come in here and scourgepost about the Horde, but as you likely understand, I laugh so that I will not cry. I, too, dearly miss Thrall’s Horde, the one that tried… Not with perfect effort, mind, but tried to distance itself from its history, tried to start over and do something good. Sometimes, I look at where Warcraft started and where it’s ended up and I just get kinda sad.
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The WC3 Horde died with Vol’jin. We need drasitical change if we want to survive as a faction. What we really need is POWER to be able to stand against the next alliance attack which will be inevitable. Currently the Horde has nothing that could counter Nightwarrior Tyrande or Jaina Marysue Proudmoore. Both of these characters alonea re enough to level entire cities down. We need more power. That is not up for debate.
Do you have even one opinion that isn’t ridiculous?
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I have thought of this possibility too. I think if she actually told him, listen kid if I don’t turn you HE will and that’s something I refuse to accept and here’s why you are going to help me take down the Jailer…
But sadly I think the reason Blizzard intentionally is keeping her motives a secret or implying that she turned him for the Jailer is just baiting these anti-Sylvanas types who will fill in the blanks with thier own headcanons.
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it’s hyperbole but it’s true. The power dynamic between the Horde and Alliance skews Alliance because Jaina, Malfurian, Tyrande are so powerful.
Who’s gonna stand up to them all? Thrall? Without his connection to the elements, he can’t protect the Horde alone. That’s what Erevien is saying.
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