10/07/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Drede
Here come the trolls that provide no actual input or discussion....
How sweet of you, coming from a supporter of crazed, disturbing, and desperate false hope of a dead issue, that's been beaten to death so bad, the horse is a mere pulp by now.
Let's just replace all races with different colored elves
10/07/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Drede
Here come the trolls that provide no actual input or discussion....
there isnt any discussion
10/07/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Drede
Here come the trolls that provide no actual input or discussion....
They are simply trying to derail the thread. Ignore their bait and continue discussing ideas with substance. They only feed off of drama anyways.
10/07/2018 09:31 PMPosted by
Gulrum
10/07/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Drede
Here come the trolls that provide no actual input or discussion....
They are simply trying to derail the thread. Ignore their bait and continue discussing ideas with substance. They only feed off of drama anyways.
Agreed. It's really not worth it.
Aye. ignore them. This thread has been going strong and shall continue to do so.
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/UZ1P07KF9IXY1522452399255.jpg
Let all races become elves.
Actually, expanding on my own point here, but there's often talk about which side is the true inheritor of Quel'Thalas, or which side is more deserving, or even the discussion about culture and the lack thereof in regards to High Elves. There's often an assumption made that Blood Elves are just High Elves in the sense that Blood Elves are the same as High Elves were before the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and that therefore High Elves don't need to be their own thing because....well, High Elves are Blood Elves.
But here's the thing. Blood Elf culture shifted significantly following the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and the design theory behind Silvermoon City that I outlined above is a great example of that. Now, I want to preface this by saying in no way do I think this illegitimizes their claim to Quel'Thalas or any such alarmist nonsense, simply that the Blood Elves' identity, narratives and themes changed following the Scourge invasion. But the declaration of becoming Blood Elves brought with it a dramatic cultural shift.
And we're not just talking about loosening the rules on Fel magic, or the mana tapping stuff, though that's certainly a part of it. We're talking about mind controlling civilians for the sake of keeping public order, or detaining and imprisoning people who spoke out against the leadership. We're talking about arcane constructs patrolling the streets shouting propaganda. We're talking about frost magic falling out of favour and fire magic taking its place, of reds and golds and greens and blacks becoming the new fashion, and so on.
Blood Elves experienced a cultural shift that was initially about honoring their fallen, but soon shifted towards reaching a new, unparalleled level of glory - not only recapturing their past power, but exceeding it. And that excess is obvious, and kind of also seeps into everything that they do. That habit of overcompensating and doing things bigger and more brashly than is needed is still strong in current Blood Elf thematics - everything is a little overdone. Which, again going back to my previous post, is kind of the point.
On the other side of the argument, a lot of people also like to suggest that modern, post-Scourge High Elves are truer to the original High Elf 'culture' - but again, this is incorrect. Now let me be clear here, just because High Elves aren't a unified, doesn't mean they're somehow bereft of culture - that's not really how culture works, you can be a refugee and still bring your experiences, customs and lifestyle with you.
However, High Elves also had to deal with the loss of their home, adjusting to life in Alliance cities where they weren't entirely trusted or were a vast minority - or they would be involved in places like the ranger lodges, though most appear to have wound up in Dalaran. Still, the loss of the Sunwell had its effects, and for a decade the High Elfves had to essentially deal with their magical addiction on their own, without the ability to leverage the strength of their peers or tap into converging ley lines to sate themselves. So the general 'quality of life' of a High Elf was considerably poorer for the most part, and access to magic was significantly lower - to a point where some groups stopped practising it entirely. So it's not like High Elves got to maintain the status quo either.
And that's the thing. Post-Scourge, neither High nor Blood Elves are really the same that they were before the invasion. It irrevocably changed both groups, so neither of them a really the 'true High Elves' of Warcraft 2 anymore. Both of their narratives have moved away from that in very different directions.
So when there's mention of which side of the argument is the 'true' inheritor of Quel'Thalas, or whether one side has greater claim to that cultural identity than the other, be it via the right of succession, or via cultural similarity, or whatever reasoning, both have their merits in different aspects, but both have been irrevocably changed by their post-Scourge invasion experiences as well.
Modern High Elf culture isn't an off-shoot of Blood Elf culture. Both essentially were created at the same time - the moment Kael'Thas Sunstrider declared his people as Blood Elves. In the same way, Blood Elf culture isn't derivative of modern High Elf culture. Both were created by the same event that caused a social and cultural schism that set the two groups on different paths. Elf culture basically split in two at the same moment. Of course, Blood Elves have the majority of the population and the real estate, but that doesn't make the modern High Elf cultural identity any less legitimate as its own entity, it's just a comparatively smaller group.
You make a fantastically compelling point, and i wish more people shared your insight.
10/06/2018 09:19 PMPosted by
Gulrum
I want High Elf shamans. Perhaps they looked to the elements after being cutoff from the Sunwell.
Yes sir! Like Alurna said, the Highvale are very close to the Wildhammers + Draenei so it seems like a strong possibility if Blizzard pays attention!
I think Shaman make slightly more sense only because there's a large group of High Elves parked next to the Wildhammer Dwarves, but even then, I don't think that's the group we'd be playing and I think that Allied Races are generally better off having less classes than more. I don't think you have to have "more" classes to differentiate them from other races, either. Do what LF did, let less classes shape them -- both Void Elf and Blood Elf can be Warlock, yank that out. Call it a day.
I really think less class options were a mistake. Lightforged are the least popular allied race and it's not just because of their underwhelming lore and aesthetics, it's because they can only be a miserable 5 classes. At least Highmountain Tauren added new druid forms, Lightforged don't add anything new to our faction. Maghar Orcs getting priest was a step in the right direction.
1 Like
10/07/2018 11:12 PMPosted by
Daenirr
10/06/2018 09:19 PMPosted by
Gulrum
I want High Elf shamans. Perhaps they looked to the elements after being cutoff from the Sunwell.
Yes sir! Like Alurna said, the Highvale are very close to the Wildhammers + Draenei so it seems like a strong possibility if Blizzard pays attention!
I think Shaman make slightly more sense only because there's a large group of High Elves parked next to the Wildhammer Dwarves, but even then, I don't think that's the group we'd be playing and I think that Allied Races are generally better off having less classes than more. I don't think you have to have "more" classes to differentiate them from other races, either. Do what LF did, let less classes shape them -- both Void Elf and Blood Elf can be Warlock, yank that out. Call it a day.
I really think less class options were a mistake. Lightforged are the least popular allied race and it's not just because of their underwhelming lore and aesthetics, it's because they can only be a miserable 5 classes. At least Highmountain Tauren added new druid forms, Lightforged don't add anything new to our faction. Maghar Orcs getting priest was a step in the right direction.
I have no idea what ultimately compels people to decide those types of things, be it class or athletics, but leaving out DK, druid, shaman, warlock and DH seem to be a good reasonable decision.
Are there any examples of helf druids or shaman in the lore or in game that come from the pre established allied backgrounds..?
<span class="truncated">...</span>
I remember seeing the devs talk about this back before TBC, and it was really interesting. Silvermoon City was intentionally designed to be slightly dystopian back in TBC. It's why there's a protester being detained near the gates. Its's why the Dead Scar exists. It's why the arcane constructs spout lines from RoboCop, why everything is a bit uncannily tall and looming, and why that scene of being mind controlled into submission existed. They wanted it to feel like there was something else going on, lurking beneath the surface - that despite the glory of the rebuilt Silvermoon City, that the Blood Elves were slightly overcompensating, and that not everything was right.
These aren't the magical, timeless High Elves at the height of their power. Blood Elves were meant to portray a shattered innocence, a slightly chipped facade showing undertones of desperation and lost glory. As a new Blood Elf, you quest through the ruins of Silvermoon City first, facing Wretched and seeing the worst of what magical addiction can do to the Elves, before you see Silvermoon City itself, and that's entirely intentional, because the devs wanted to cement in your head that this was a civilisation that was doing everything it could to pretend it had recaptured the glory of its peak, but was still very heavily scarred from the events of Warcraft 3. It's actually still one of my favourite regions - not because it's pretty, but because the devs were so clever about being subtly ensuring that you were constantly reminded that not all is well in Quel'Thalas.
I don't agree with your premise, but it's important to point out that the devs were trying really hard to show us that the Blood Elves had fallen off their lofty perch. I think that's thematically important and relevant to the discussion about Blood Elf/High Elf cultural changes in the wake of the Scourge invasion.
Actually, expanding on my own point here, but there's often talk about which side is the true inheritor of Quel'Thalas, or which side is more deserving, or even the discussion about culture and the lack thereof in regards to High Elves. There's often an assumption made that Blood Elves are just High Elves in the sense that Blood Elves are the same as High Elves were before the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and that therefore High Elves don't need to be their own thing because....well, High Elves are Blood Elves.
But here's the thing. Blood Elf culture shifted significantly following the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and the design theory behind Silvermoon City that I outlined above is a great example of that. Now, I want to preface this by saying in no way do I think this illegitimizes their claim to Quel'Thalas or any such alarmist nonsense, simply that the Blood Elves' identity, narratives and themes changed following the Scourge invasion. But the declaration of becoming Blood Elves brought with it a dramatic cultural shift.
And we're not just talking about loosening the rules on Fel magic, or the mana tapping stuff, though that's certainly a part of it. We're talking about mind controlling civilians for the sake of keeping public order, or detaining and imprisoning people who spoke out against the leadership. We're talking about arcane constructs patrolling the streets shouting propaganda. We're talking about frost magic falling out of favour and fire magic taking its place, of reds and golds and greens and blacks becoming the new fashion, and so on.
Blood Elves experienced a cultural shift that was initially about honoring their fallen, but soon shifted towards reaching a new, unparalleled level of glory - not only recapturing their past power, but exceeding it. And that excess is obvious, and kind of also seeps into everything that they do. That habit of overcompensating and doing things bigger and more brashly than is needed is still strong in current Blood Elf thematics - everything is a little overdone. Which, again going back to my previous post, is kind of the point.
On the other side of the argument, a lot of people also like to suggest that modern, post-Scourge High Elves are truer to the original High Elf 'culture' - but again, this is incorrect. Now let me be clear here, just because High Elves aren't a unified, doesn't mean they're somehow bereft of culture - that's not really how culture works, you can be a refugee and still bring your experiences, customs and lifestyle with you.
However, High Elves also had to deal with the loss of their home, adjusting to life in Alliance cities where they weren't entirely trusted or were a vast minority - or they would be involved in places like the ranger lodges, though most appear to have wound up in Dalaran. Still, the loss of the Sunwell had its effects, and for a decade the High Elfves had to essentially deal with their magical addiction on their own, without the ability to leverage the strength of their peers or tap into converging ley lines to sate themselves. So the general 'quality of life' of a High Elf was considerably poorer for the most part, and access to magic was significantly lower - to a point where some groups stopped practising it entirely. So it's not like High Elves got to maintain the status quo either.
And that's the thing. Post-Scourge, neither High nor Blood Elves are really the same that they were before the invasion. It irrevocably changed both groups, so neither of them a really the 'true High Elves' of Warcraft 2 anymore. Both of their narratives have moved away from that in very different directions.
So when there's mention of which side of the argument is the 'true' inheritor of Quel'Thalas, or whether one side has greater claim to that cultural identity than the other, be it via the right of succession, or via cultural similarity, or whatever reasoning, both have their merits in different aspects, but both have been irrevocably changed by their post-Scourge invasion experiences as well.
Modern High Elf culture isn't an off-shoot of Blood Elf culture. Both essentially were created at the same time - the moment Kael'Thas Sunstrider declared his people as Blood Elves. In the same way, Blood Elf culture isn't derivative of modern High Elf culture. Both were created by the same event that caused a social and cultural schism that set the two groups on different paths. Elf culture basically split in two at the same moment. Of course, Blood Elves have the majority of the population and the real estate, but that doesn't make the modern High Elf cultural identity any less legitimate as its own entity, it's just a comparatively smaller group.
That's all well and good but unless you plan to put "high elves" on the horde then its a no go. Blizzard are following a pattern. High Mountain went Horde. Lightforged went alliance despite both sides helping them. If it had gone the other way people would've been upset. Blizzard knows this. Blood Elves are Horde and since just giving you the same race/same look is counter to the precedent they wont. They will anger a significant portion of the playerbase. They don't want to do that if they can avoid it. So unless High Elves were to join the Horde then its not gonna happen. It shouldn't happen. The only way i see them doing it is if they pair with Eredar or Ogres in order to pacify the understandably angry Horde Player base.
In the end it doesn't matter how culturally different you point out they are. Because they would look too similar.
Nightbourne are visually distinct and so are Void Elves before anyone chimes in with that.
But here's the thing. Blood Elf culture shifted significantly following the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and the design theory behind Silvermoon City that I outlined above is a great example of that.
The Scourging of Quel'thalas occurred within the last 2 decades in WoW. Arthas and Jaina are contemporary characters.
2 decades isn't enough time for a massive cultural change. The only change was a name change which a handful of High Elves didn't accept for mainly political reasons including High Elves in Dalaran who were already aloof and snooty and High Elves in other specific cities and outposts within the Alliance kingdoms. None of whom experienced the Scourging of their homeland, the slaughter of 90% of their race, or the treachery, jailing, and near execution of the survivors.
All of which came at the hands of Human princes and generals.
Silvermoon City was ransacked and burned then later rebuilt in basically the same style just with lots more red.
Blood Elves are the High Elf survivors, within their own homeland, of multiple betrayals by Humans who killed 90% of their race. Alliance High Elves are a handful of small groups who were hanging out with Neutral factions in other cities or stationed in far flung outposts.
Silver Covenant are idealistic bigots who formed a militia to fight the Horde after the main body and population of their race joined the Horde and refuse to consider the reasons for the name change and shifting alliances.
Posted by Nindraine
Actually, expanding on my own point here, but there's often talk about which side is the true inheritor of Quel'Thalas, or which side is more deserving, or even the discussion about culture and the lack thereof in regards to High Elves. There's often an assumption made that Blood Elves are just High Elves in the sense that Blood Elves are the same as High Elves were before the invasion of Quel'Thalas, and that therefore High Elves don't need to be their own thing because....well, High Elves are Blood Elves.
High Elves of Quel'thalas never left Quel'thalas, continued to fight against the Scourge even though they had lost 90% of their population to the Scourge, changed their name in memory of those fallen killed by the Scourge, and later rebuilt part of their capital city which had been burned by the Scourge.
You are trying to argue that Democrats and Republicans are separate races and cultures despite both political factions being American citizens and members of both parties living in every state and falling within every tax bracket.
High Elves outside of Que'thalas basically number ambassadors to Alliance kingdoms, a handful of mages in Dalaran, small groups of rangers in outposts, and those that were hanging out in Stormwind and formed the Silver Covenant or joined the expedition to Outland. There aren't enough of these High Elves to even have a unique culture (which they don't anyway) or sustain their own numbers even if they weren't all scattered out in separate distant places.
You are trying to argue that Democrats and Republicans are separate races and cultures despite both political factions being American citizens and members of both parties living in every state and falling within every tax bracket.
High Elves outside of Que'thalas basically number ambassadors to Alliance kingdoms, a handful of mages in Dalaran, small groups of rangers in outposts, and those that were hanging out in Stormwind and formed the Silver Covenant or joined the expedition to Outland. There aren't enough of these High Elves to even have a unique culture (which they don't anyway) or sustain their own numbers even if they weren't all scattered out in separate distant places.
Except for the fact that we now have examples of what constitutes as an allied race and different ideologies and ways of life are now considered to be sufficient enough justification to allow for a people to be considered a playable race. I abhore the idea of using real world politics but I will reference it only once to prove my point. Democrat and Republican? Lightforged and regular. Void and Sin'dorei, Sin'dorei and those that still affiliate themselves only as Quel'dorei.
In your response to them not being able to have their own unique culture you yourself named some.. The most popular thus far being ranger and military magi. It's not a population issue.
Allied race =/= new biological race. Mag'har are literally brown orcs.
@Tunkaningan: That argument was thoroughly covered yesterday. By all means, if you have something new to the table, let's hear it.....but arguing the same points you did yesterday just invites a circular argument that isn't worth engaging in.
@Ruddypiper: What you posted is framed as a response, but doesn't actually respond to the points I've made. It simply parrots the same argument, without backing the statements made no less. If you disagree with what I posted, then by all means, show me examples that disprove or undermine the points I made, in the same way that I pointed to examples in-game that show how Blood Elves and High Elves have changed since going separate ways. Otherwise all you have is opinion.
Do people not know that the Dalaran High Elve have been separated from Silvermoon for 3,000 years?
Giving High Elves the Mag'har treatment is certainly another possibility. Each one of the enclaves of High Elves could have their own unique customization options.
10/08/2018 03:14 AMPosted by
Gulrum
Giving High Elves the Mag'har treatment is certainly another possibility. Each one of the enclaves of High Elves could have their own unique customization options.
Yeah. A lot of people threw in some neat suggestions and made fan art or references to things like the azure tattoos that Alleria has. You could offer them more rugged or unkempt features. Scruff on top of more posh like the Silver Covenant seem to have, because the magi seem very well kept.
10/08/2018 03:19 AMPosted by
Arisran
10/08/2018 03:14 AMPosted by
Gulrum
Giving High Elves the Mag'har treatment is certainly another possibility. Each one of the enclaves of High Elves could have their own unique customization options.
Yeah. A lot of people threw in some neat suggestions and made fan art or references to things like the azure tattoos that Alleria has. You could offer them more rugged or unkempt features. Scruff on top of more posh like the Silver Covenant seem to have, because the magi seem very well kept.
The Dalaran High Elves could even get some long wizard beards! Like Antonidas style (even though he was a human).