Orgrim killed some warlocks, this did not make the horde free of demon control in the second war. The orcs were still doing what the legion wanted, and were still under the influencing effects of mannoroth’s blood.
3 Likes
Well again, we don’t actually know that. We know the trolls started the Troll Wars, but that happened 4,000 years after they arrived. We have no idea whether their arrival was completely peaceful, but it seems unlikely given that they built their home on a holy site.
But assuming you’re right, your super special extra circumstance is that you believe the High Elves were able to steal nonviolently? And if the orcs could have just limited their theft on land and property to a long weekend when everyone in Goldshire was in Stormwind for the king’s coronation?
Actually it literally did. The Legion’s only control over the orcs was via the Shadow Council which had been killed. It’s only coincidence that the orcs war for territory and food coincided with the Legion’s goals.
Might as well claim that Deathwing or Alterac were slaves to the Legion by the same logic.
3 Likes
The Frostwolves have a good case for being refugees, as you claim, but not the old horde. Thats the only clan I can think of that would be refugees, and not an invading army.
2 Likes
We should avoid widening the scope of discussion.
Right now we’re only talking about refugees who arrived, took territory from the natives and were involved in wars to claim more territory and keep the territory they had already taken.
5 Likes
The Second War also happened because Orgrim wanted to give the orcs a huge army to slam their heads against, afraid that they’d start fighting each other while still high on demon blood. They could have settled the subcontinent they just finished conquering, but didn’t.
3 Likes
The Orcs them selves claimed the horde was an army. The Elves were civilian refugees, they didnt even have a military at the time. You’re just being dishonest, the Elves didnt go to Lordaeron to conquer anyone, the orcs came to azeroth specifically for that reason.
13 Likes
And? I’ve already addressed this point. The orcs were smart enough to realize an entire population can’t just move into a place that already has natives without it turning violent. If the Elves weren’t smart enough to figure the same thing out that’s their problem.
No, I’m just disagreeing with you and your reasoning is bad.
You can’t make a case that the motives are relevant because the actions are the same. A population moved into a place that was already owned and stole a bunch of land.
That’s actually an interesting point. If I believed, like Rivendel, that starvation was a factor in whether something was right and wrong, I’d certainly feel more strongly that the first war was justified than the second.
The Actions were not the same, the Elves took an abandoned ruin, not inhabited, as payment for a war the Amani started. The Orcs massacred everyone in stormwind and burned it to the ground during a war the orcs started.
3 Likes
An abandoned, ruined, uninhabited holy site that the Amani owned. It’s still theft and attempting to reclaim property by force of arms is legal and right.
1 Like
Uh, no its not. Trying to reclaim territory long since decided to belong to some one else is wrong. This is why Germany got destroyed in WW2. Ancient claims to Polish land mean nothing. A new people live there, due to an agreement, and cant be displaced.
P.S. you dont let “holy sites” fall to ruin.
3 Likes
Godwining yourself out already? Well, I mean, you’ve been floundering for awhile so no reason to not reach for that. I’m just going to talk a bit on this topic then without giving this failure of an argument any more attention, for your sake.
It’s actually an interesting situation we find ourselves in because the Highborne colonized for a combination of religious and cultural reasons, not out of any physical necessity like other refugees. But now the argument becomes that it’s okay because they colonized a place that was left empty most of the time for religious and cultural reasons. It’s a weird bit of cognitive dissonance that causes someone to believe culture is a good reason to steal land, but not a good reason to leave land untouched or steal the land back.
11 Likes
You’ve already lost this argument since a while back. Even other posters think you are being absurd. These two situations are nothing alike, you thinking they are alike is your problem and no one else’s.
Who was under the control of the legion in that situation. The Orcs. Who was attacked first? The Elves. Who was blood lusted? The Orcs. Who needed magic to survive? The Elves. Etc.
4 Likes
The high elves had to have sailed by Kul Tiras, the Broken Isles (were those visible at the time? Honestly I am bad at keeping track on what was and was not retconned), and Northrend’s southern shore on their way there. They also would have definitely been aware Southern Kalimdor existed.
This is a lie high elves tell themselves to try and justify what they do. The existence of the night elves is proof to the contrary. High elves just chose not to adapt.
High elves teaching humans about arcane directly lead to the Legion returning in the form of the Horde. Malfurion’s concerns about the arcane were proven right by history.
Where I come from if you are on private property there is a good chance you could get shot. Or at least arrested for trespassing.
Beyond that the high elves were in Tirisfal for some time before they decided to journey deeper into Amani territory. I find it wildly unlikely they didn’t know the trolls were there.
11 Likes
Argumentum ad populum I guess. So at this point you are completely empty? Was Trolls are like World War 2 the last argument in your chamber?
Cause you can take a break, walk away for 10 minutes, compose your thoughts, see if you can come up with something internally consistent and more compelling than “You’re just stupid and everybody knows it.”
Yeah, I’ve addressed all these. You’re mostly wrong and the one time you’re right isn’t really relevant.
8 Likes
Where I am from, random shore cannot be private property. Secondly you have to make it clear its private property. Finally, as far as I can tell, the Trolls fight with everyone who happens to show up or just exist.
Also land claims do expire, or get lost to those who defeat you, otherwise all land is elemental land.
3 Likes
Yeah, no, those are not wrong, you saying they’re a wrong has no effect on the fact they are right and canon.
I guess that’s a yes. You are out of arguments. Good talk Rivendel. I guess we can let whoever bothers to read this decide if you’ve made a good case for situational theft of land.
1 Like
Thanks for the capitulation, its good we established the orcs are an invading army and the elves a refugee population.
2 Likes
Good thing they weren’t attacked on the shore then. The high elves pushed into deeper Amani territory before they hit the first skirmishing party.
Also trolls don’t fight with everyone. Vulpera, tortollans, and sethrak all coexist on Zandalar peacefully. Back in ancient times they also coexisted in an uneasy friendship with the Mogu.
Trolls and elves are actually very similar. If you leave them alone they’ll usually leave you alone, but they are incredibly territorial.
13 Likes
Still, the Elves arrival has little to nothing in common with imperialist colonizers. The Elves arriving were not the vanguard of some empire, but civilians, mostly women and children. They had no interest to fight, and less so conquer some one.
Due to the Amani’s refusal to use diplomacy, the Elves had no idea whats happening, just that the Amani were attacking them. Eventually the Elves won the fight and moved into a ruin with nice ley lines. From a logical perspective, moving in to an abandoned ruin seems like the correct thing to do to appease the natives who dont want you on the land they are currently using.
Finally, we are ignoring that between the founding of Silvermoon and the Troll wars, the Amani and High Elves must have had a peace treaty, since there was peace during those times according to Chronicle. The Amani broke the peace treaty to sate territorial claims, which is imperialism. Never mind they had no use for the land, as the Amani dont use Arcane magic from the ley lines, and didnt need anything else in Silvermoon.
I sympathize with the Amani who want their old empire back, but nothing that happened is really the high elves fault, they just showed up and got attacked and it went from there.
2 Likes