So your official stance on the matter is that it is morally sound to kill people and take their stuff, yes?
Tirisfal actually was considered Amani territory at the time.
APPARENTLY I’m not allowed to link things. Frustrating. Go look up the Troll Wars map from Chronicles and you can see the Amani territory stretched across modern Tirisfal.
The High Elves had to trek through miles and miles of Amani territory to reach the location they chose for the Sunwell. All the while fighting off the Amani who were trying to push them out. Once they had the Sunwell situated the trolls wouldn’t have strength to attack again in earnest until the Troll Wars.
Yah. Time frame wise WoW lore just doesn’t make a lot of sense. There are these awkward thousand year long pauses in history in which everyone apparently stopped doing anything important for no apparent reason.
So its your stance to kill refugees just because they didnt know you claim land that you dont inhabit? Yes? The Elves were refugees, knew nothing of this new land, and the trolls assaulted them just for existing.
I feel like the high elves knew the Amani had a land claim after their first skirmish. Aggressive attacks are a pretty universal language for “Get out.” High elves chose to push forward, fighting the Amani tooth and nail for years until they made their way to the founding of the Sunwell.
Why did they do all that? Why did they choose to settle in inhabited land rather than get on their ships and go elsewhere?
Because they wanted a massive leyline cross section to amplify the power of their well.
I’m sorry, but that is just greed. The high elves had options. They knew the land was taken after the very first skirmish. They made the choice to push on and claim what wasn’t theirs because they wanted it and they didn’t respect the rights of the people already there.
Yeah…“Get out” to the starving refugees. This wasn’t imperialist colonization, this was refugees needed a place now, and cant just get back on their boats and find land they dont know exists. Not to mention the ley lines were as essential as food, since magic is as nescessary to high elves as food.
From a justification standpoint, the trolls attacked first, the Elves didnt attack them for their land. After that point, its a war the trolls started, the Elves won, then the Elves took the spoils of war from their victory. Not very important spoils though, all they took was a ruin and its surrounding area.
Then the trolls started their own imperialist war against the elves in the troll wars, incited by Zandalari spies.
So they’re no longer starving refugees from a dying world because they’re not helpless? This seems like special pleading.
Plus, they sent civilians. It looks like Blizzard wised up and took away my ability to link in posts, but it would be those Peon units in Warcraft 1 and 2.
Ahh, so they’re no longer refugees from a dying world because they had the good sense to realize the natives might have a problem with them showing up. Why are you punishing the orcs for being smarter than the elves?
And again, this sounds like a post hoc rationalization made because your position had implications you’re not comfortable with.
Those refugees could have stopped on Kul Tiras or gone north for Northrend. They could have gone a ways south and tried to co-habitat with the humans they loved so much later on. Arguably they could have settled southern Kalimdor, depending on how strict Malfurion was with the banishment.
But they didn’t. Because they wanted a more powerful location steeped in magic. So they chose to push into occupied territory.
Shoot. They also could have chosen to just not break the law of their homeland and never get banished to begin with. It’s almost like they made themselves refugees by becoming political outcasts because they refused to give up their power.
From a pure justification standpoint; the trolls protected their borders against strange, foreign creatures. These creatures, fully aware the land was claimed by an indigenous peoples, decided their desires for a magical resource outweighed the Amani’s right to maintain control of their sacred land.
Years later the Amani tried to reclaim their lost territory but were burned alive in a massive arcane inferno.
I do not believe in generalizations, I believe in judging things in a case by case basis. These are the facts, the Elves were carrying women and children with them and just wanted a home. The Orcs came to Azeroth as an invading army, under the control of demons, and their main goal was “blood and glory” they wanted something to fight, they didnt want farms, peaceful lives and food. They needed to kill stuff to sate the blood lust.
Oof. Listen, I agree, the Alliance is pretty human dominated in terms of major characters and expansion featured story arcs. Absolutely, let’s give some other racial characters room to stand in the sun and stretch their legs.
But this is…melodramatic at best.
I think if you’re slapping a racist context on top of this, that’s on you. Warcraft originated from the very simple idea of: Humans vs Orcs. It stands to reason then, that humans might be important characters in whatever shape the series takes.
But to say that humanity and it’s exceptionalism is a key part of Alliance Identity doesn’t seem quite true to me. Where is the cutscene where Tyrande admits that Anduin and the armies of Stormwind fight better than her poor old sentinels ever could? Where is it where Moira Thaurissan thanks the humans for winning the war when the weak little dwarves could not? Where specifically is the exceptionalism of humans portrayed?
Sure, certain characters that happen to be human are exceptional (Anduin, Jaina), see my point above, humans are literally half of the original M.O. of the series. Humans are a big part of any successful fantasy series. Deal with it.
At the end of the day, I think you’re making a big fuss because there enough nelves doing important things to sate your hard on for their culture. And I get that, despite my parody post a few days back urging dwarf players not to buy Shadowlands, I genuinely wish more dwarves were relevant and got to do more. But…does it really warrant this kind of post?
Shouldn’t the most important character in your experience be the one you created to journey through this world as? Heroes of the Alliance, Horde, and other factions come and go. They save the day and then die off, or disappear for a while. The spotlight on them is revolving. But it never leaves you. The PC is exactly the character you wanted to be in this world. And the PC is eternal.
Interesting to note the difference in messaging between the two events being discussed here. The story of the magical blue eyed high elves is written as helpless refugees being forced into combat by the wily savage natives. The story of the orcs fleeing their dying world is written as an army of drug crazed maniacs coming to wipe out humanity.
Yeah, that’s the nice way of saying “special pleading.”
You see, I believe in applying morality uniformly.
The orcs also had women, and children. The women were the slightly smaller ones killing people, and the children were the slightly dumber ones killing people. It’s an easy mistake to make though since they were the size of adults.
What are you talking about, they built farms in Warcraft 1. You unlocked them in Swamps of Sorrow, they costed 500 gold. As for them wanting food, you actually have that backwards. The Highborne left a society with plenty of food, the Orcs were starving.
So even in your attempts to judge on a case by case basis, you seem to be saying that the Orcs had a better claim as refugees than the Highborne.
If they had known of such places, they might have. The high elven need for magic isnt a egotistical power craze, its a biological necessity. Following Malfurions laws would be stupid, Arcane Magic is a benevolent force, Malfurion was just too ignorant to realize that even a inherently good force can be misused.
I’m sure you’d agree just because you go somewhere on a boat and get off at a random shore, is not valid reason to get an arrow through the heart.
No one has ever said peaceful, for either the high elves or the orcs. Try and keep up.
We’re comparing two violent groups of refugees to see if it’s okay for refugees to show up and start taking things.
You realize how funny this is getting right? You’re wrong of course, the orcs weren’t slaves to the Burning Legion at the time of the 1st or 2nd war. They were puppets during the 1st war and by the 2nd war were completely free of them. That also has nothing to do with their goals or their needs as immigrants.