The games of War1 and 2 were written with orcs as demonic invaders in mind. It wasn’t until 3 that they were reconceptualized as heroes. Saying “Why weren’t they heroes in 1 and 2” is disingenuous to a fault.
They didn’t drink demonblood.
Except for the ones who did, and became Satyr, and to this day aid the Burning Legion – if they didn’t switch over to Old God worship.
didnt Orgrim pretty much kill Blackhand and arrest Guldan before slaughtering and capturing SW? So isnt anything past that point squarely on the shoulders of an Orc that was not being free from Legions direct orders? Or are we giving Orgrim and his Horde a pass here too?
And yeah. Night Elves and Velen finally figured out what the Legion was and organized some kind of opposition.
Isn’t your direct claim about the Orcs not standing up to the Legion?
Yeah looks like it was, Once the Orcs knew about the Legion and how it was tricking them. They dealt with that.
Orcs were corrupted with a demonic bloodcurse that made it difficult to hear their better conscience.
Even KratOrc explains this when speaking to his son in Ogrimmar.
Traveling Son says: Didn’t it make everyone sad?
Traveling Warrior says: We were… not ourselves. It is difficult to explain, boy.
Which resulted in the first and second war rather than figuring out a diplomatic solution or going back where they came from.
So now we’re moving the goal post to the argument we started? Or in the very least you’re trying to change topics.
You keep imagining goal posts I never made.
The whole premise has been that Orcs took the demons offer and did exactly what the demons wanted.
Which was 1) wipe out the draenei
and 2) invade azeroth and conquer it.
They tried really hard the first one and the second one they failed.
At no point unlike the other races rise up. put a stop to the legions plans for them. Yeah they killed the shadow council but they still invaded Azeroth just as planned.
Nothing changed besides the leadership.
Do you understand now?
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Limiting it to the time where the game devs designed them to not be remotely heroic is a texas sharpshooter. You’re specifically ignoring anything that doesn’t fit your argument, including the fact that the orcs rebelled against the Legion and that night elves – who became satyrs – never rebelled against the Legion.
Your statement:
The Horde did stand up the Legion and killed their lackeys.
About your second argument. Look towards the Blood Curse :
Once they drank the blood to what they originally thought was for their survival they literately couldn’t control their thirst for blood.
But again once the Horde knew about the Legion and the people involved, they took care of it.
True, but then he promptly prepared to kill the rest of the remaining undead despite just moments earlier working alongside them.
???
I still don’t understand what you mean. The majority of orcs were under the impression that Fel was good and Draenei were evil.
Many Maghar refugees do appear in shattarath. Perhaps they did, and we were never told about it. Ultimately it doesn’t matter if they did or didn’t though, because they are an example of orcs fighting against demonic influence, (they did learn of the dangers of Fel eventually, as seen in Outland questing).
It was actually because of disease.
That’s the reason why they were separated from the majority of the race, it’s because of quarantine.
That certainly didn’t redeem them. It was the THIRD WAR after that. As for the war, they still needed land, resource, and was still technically under demonic influences. Orgrim was not the best Warcheif, he did not understand really why the orcs went to Azeroth, all he found out was that the Shadow Council were evil idiots that needed to be outed.
Yes, because he knew the demon blood was powerful, and that drinking it makes one powerful. He wanted to be powerful in that point of time because he was fighting Night Elves (who were kicking orc butt) and a Wild God at the time.
No, it doesn’t. But it doesn’t make the Alliance superheroes that will save the world either, because they also do the same: fight evil for their own purposes.
He was planning on wiping them out as well. The Forsaken kill him and his soldiers out of self-preservation, not only Sylvanas’ orders.
I would accept that if it werent for the fact that they followed that up by doing exactly what the legion had told them to do earlier.
The only thing orcs accomplished was their autonomy to commit the same attrocities and could not blame Gulan and his ilk for manipulating them in killing all the draenei.
You should look up what exactly means.
They continued war with Stormwind because they were already at war with Stormwind. Stormwind wasn’t going to stop and just let them go. The only answer, as far as they saw it with the blood curse silencing their conscience, was to kill them.
So you completely ignore the curse of blood? Also from Cronicle 2
After Blackhand’s death, the Shadow Council had fled. Orgrim did not know where they had run to. For now, Orgrim focused his attention on the war with Stormwind. He did not relish the way the orcs would survive was by conquering Stormwind and making it their new home. If the did not defeat their enemies, they would be at the mercy of a strange world.
Darn Treng beat me too it.
I am not trying to defend what Orgrim did but I do want to create some context.
Draenor was dying and the orcs generally didn’t know why. They needed a new home. For Orgrim that meant that they needed to take it. They couldn’t go back. In fact, that was the primary motivation for invading Azeroth in the first place. For Orgrim, it was the humans or the orcs.
It is all a mater of perspective. You would, in theory, name a war machine after someone who has had military fame and notoriety. I certainly wouldn’t name a destroyer Hamuul’s Fist over Ogrim, Grom, Kargath, ect. While I’m sure some are off limits, culturally, such as Gul’dan and Kilrogg, most are fair game for their previous accolades. Besides, what better way to strike fear into the Alliance than naming a ship after the orc who burnt down Stormwind?
Its important to note that nothing is stopping an orphanage, medical ward, or park from being named after Ogrim, but one of the greatest revolutionary warriors of the orcs wouldn’t really fit that image. He wasn’t Mother Teresa compassionate. Hamuul would be a far better fit, Cairne, Sen’jin, Drek’thar.
Plenty problematic leaders are given honors. Jackson being the one of the most notorious in the U.S in addition to every Confederate and your feelings on them are completely based upon your perspective, right or wrong.
I’m actually of the opinion that Confederate monuments should be reserved to museums. I certainly wouldn’t name any active warships or military bases after men who led a pro-slavery uprising against the United States government.
Yes, they also fought for their homes, and family and many noble ideals in addition to fighting for their right to hold slaves, just as Orgrim eventually fought for his people, but the major war they are remembered for is not one that they should be honored for.
I mean, this is the problem, no? That some people thinking honoring a Confederate (members of the Old Horde in this analogy that did bad things) isn’t something to be encouraged.
Please notice the main title of the thread was “The Tragedy of the Orcs”
In which the OP correctly observes the orcs always talk the talk when it comes to their honor and ideals but each and every time they seemingly fail to walk the walk when it is really put to the test.
Everytime the Orcs face any adversary or difficulty they lash out.
It happened with the draenei. The Humans. The Night Elves and now the Alliance in the current WoW format. Of course a couple of posters here have attributed this sort of behavior to the Blood Curse, Legion manipulation and so on. However the Orcs are not unique in dealing with the legion and curroption, in every single reference we are aware of is that the Legion failed or could not see a possibility of turning the majority of the population to their influence. As demonstrated how each of these races overcame the Legion.
There is clearly a stark difference how much success the Legion had in turning the orcs to whatever they wanted. Immediately after stifling the Shadow Council Orgrim continued the war and extended it further after he finds out there are other kingdoms out there.
Now back on topic.
My original position was that Orcs have always had this savage and ruthless side to them. This its Us or Them mentality when they are the ones to blame for it.
“We are starving. So we must kill them and take their food”. Rather than… idk… move elsewhere in Kalimdor like Mulgore’s vast grasslands for farms or resorting to fishing or using their shamans, druids and argent dawn to cleans Lordaeron like they were doing in WPL or EPL to begin farming those area.
You know. Solutions.
But nope they always use survival as the reason to start a war when there are plenty of other solutions.
Orgrim embodies that perfectly. He never took the drink but still ruthlessly pursued his war. No mercy given. When he finds out there are other kingdom’s out there he opts for more genocide and blood shed.
And look I have no problem with orcs being the way they are. I am just pointing out this fallacy some posters have here that they are somehow NOT the blood thirsty savages we have shown that they are time and time again.
Always with the same excuses like its for survival! or they were tricked!
Frankly I find it disingenuous.
There is always someone to blame or make an exception to explain how the Orcs are NOT inherently blood thirsty killing machines. When are we going to call it what it is?
I mean it speaks to the point I’m getting at. Now for our actual situation, smash the confederates into rubble and recast them into actual heroes out of spite. Take down Lee and put up Sherman in Georgia ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
That aside, we do revere past individuals for they good they did and not the bad or controversial. Some may take a nuanced approach to it. Some are easier to point a finger to and say “bad!” like examples I provided. Some more recent individuals you’re unlikely to have that.
To keep with our examples here, a Lee or a Jackson would be similar to a Gul’dan or a Killrog. Objectively bad individuals in both societies that only a small sect probably still revere. Whereas an Orgim, similar to a Sherman or Grant to continue to use Antebellum America, would have a more nuanced approach and would receive named honors. Ogrimmar, Hammer Fall, Ogrim’s Hammer. Similarly, Sherman tank, Fort Sherman, stamps, a ship.
Perhaps it was a poor initial example, or conveyed poorly, but some Old Horde individuals are revered as the “good” they did out weighted the “bad”. Again, it is a matter of perspective. A Southerner would spit on Sherman’s grave while the Amani probably have no love for Ogrim either while Northerners and Orcs each hold them in some sort of respectful manner.
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Do you think someone would actually do that?
Just go on the internet and tell lies?