No, we are talking about when he took control of the Horde by killing Blackhand in single combat. After which he banished Fel Magic and all that… Then immediately continued doing the thing the Demons wanted the Horde to do…
Actually, it only becomes an issue when you focus on the factions as monoliths, and boil everything down to red vs blue without allowing for any sort of nuance.
If they would simply step away from the “race X is all Y” simplicity, then we could have as many villains as they needed, because “villain of race X” would stop equalling “race X is evil”.
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Being the incredible impatient person I am, I didnt bother to read all the replies. Dsmn you MTV gen…wait!!
My problem is that if you are going to use wod orcs as a template of morality, and that this is concrete proof of being evil, then let’s not forget about the draenai of shadowmoon valley and the ones of auchendoun. They turned to the legion without any help from the orcs, would that not also solidify them as evil. What about the religious zealot draenai, who viewed their religion as so superior that they adopted a convert or die attitude. I think that incriminates them just as much. I am not making excuses, and there is something to be said about blind loyalty, but you paint an entire race as evil, eventually some fans will believe it. This certainly seems like the goal of blizz and they are bringing the other races with them. I personally find it much more interesting to see someone struggle with their morality, and their demons, grommash of wc3, then a mustache twirling villian aka his son
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Blizzard seems to like the way they write WoW orcs now which is contradictory to how they wrote em before. Why they did this…who knows.
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The Night Elves didn’t try to negotiate the orcs out of Ashenvale. they attacked first, because they’re brainless savages who are incapable of rational thought on any level.
They even sacrificed their demi god because they were too dumb to know when to quit.
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Lets start with the fact if the roles were reverse we know the orcs would attack with nay a thought for negotiation. If the night elves are “brainless savages” much more so the orcs.
Second, the chronicles book made it quite clear. Tyrande didnt want to start a fight, if the orcs had simply passed though, or HELL, if they bother to ask the forest, rather that steal from it, the night elves and Horde might have come to blows.
Through to where, though?
I mean, the orcs were new to the landscape and were simply cutting down the trees just outside of the land they just settled. If you started a colony in a supposedly uninhabited place where there’s trees just outside of a clearing, wouldn’t you also use that wood instead of the wood deeper in?
Seeing Draenor, I think we both know why they didn’t ask the forest, and instead took an axe to it.
Well I think that depends on which orc you’re talking about. If it was Rexxar or Thrall, I think there would be a great chance at diplomacy between orc and elf, greater anyway than if it was Grommash in charge, which unfortunately who it would likely be in that particular moment.
So yes, it’s likely the orcs would have attacked, but that’s not really representative of the orcs at the time. While I wouldn’t have called Night Elves brainless savages, they were quite savage in the instance of their first meeting with the orcs. Understandably so, considering their culture, but still.
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But the orcs have attempted to trade with the nelves in Ashenvale for years… and have been attacked each time theyve tried, so Thrall kept things low key and allowed the Warsong to raid portions of it.
Garrosh just kicked things up a notch when people in Orgrimmar began to starve.
Also, I genuinely believe all the complaints above would be resolved if people would read quest dialogue and the outside books to develop and explain why all this stuff has happened. A wiki site doesnt show how things evolve from one another.
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Ok, firstly it did send the orcs into a Murderous frenzy, far worse than anything prior to drinking it. It did enslave the Orcs to the Demon’s will which was the entire point of giving them the Demon Blood. Finally, in the MU the orcs had no idea that the demons were behind it as they had been lead down this path believing they were following the will of their ancestor’s spirits. All this is supported frequently in lore, from just the Rise of the Horde novel, to Saurfang’s comments about the winter after Grom had killed Mannaroth when the blood haze had lifted and the full weight of the horrors of their atrocities struck home on many orc veterans.
Orgrim never drank the demon blood and only found out about the Demonic control because Durotan went to him. It was Durotan’s assassination which finally galvanized Orgrim to act. They weren’t free of Demonic influence either hence the Lethargy when they were in the internment camps and Grom’s constant struggles with it in Lord of the Clans and WC3.
And finally something I can agree with.
Peasants aren’t exactly geniuses either. Regardless, Orcs are perfectly intelligent but culturally predisposed to loyalty. I think what they tried with only moderate success in WoD was to show the source of why orc culture encourages a particular way of thinking and acting, mainly living in a world where you are constantly under threat from almost everything.
Not entirely true. The two have traded from time to time but unfortunately political fall out has often caused things to go pair shaped. Case in point was just before the Cataclysm when the NEs cut off all trade with the Orcs because of the Wrathgate. Not very logical as far as I can see but then again I suppose Sylvanas used the same logic to justify the horde attacking Teldrassil because of Stormheim.
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You make it sound like the orcs were mind controlled like the scourge and made to move against their will which isnt the case at all.
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You are somewhat right, but that is wording that’s used by almost every source talking about this issue. I see it as the demons had some deal of influence, even outside of the Shadow Council, that the orcs’ Blood Haze made the orcs more susceptible to Demonic command.
Though we never saw this, I think that’s a pretty good guess considering Sylvanas uses similar methods to Undead who go berserk when they’re first raised.
The orcs were tricked into starting a war against the Draenei but what the demon blood did was more suggestive. It robbed them of any sense of doubt or guilt. It was like a drug. It wasn’t mind control as much as a drug that made them compliant and suppressed any urge to question what they were doing and it feed their desire for destruction to new heights.
Part of the deal with the scourge was the demons wanting a more controllable proxy. The orcs were too volatile as a weapon and too prone to imploding.
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I kind of feel like this is a failure the orcs bare.
WoW is full of stories about the Legion trying to influence a race into doing unspeakable things.
However the only race we have seen this fully affect is the orcs.
Unlike the Eredar and the Draenei.
The Night Elves vs the Naga or Satyr
Or the humans vs Necromancers and so on.
Each race stood up to them and ultimately won.
All races seemingly overcame the legion.
Except the orcs and their Horde.
the genocided the draenei. Destroyed their own world and tried the same thing in Azeroth. The only thing that stopped them was the Alliance and they spared them.
fast forward they still take the blood to invade the night elf lands for resources.
until finally killing Mannoroth.
WoW and their different quests and continuing story seems to only damn them further.
I humbly put forward that the orcs have always been monstrous and savage creatures. They talk the talk when it comes to their morals and “humanity” labelled honor but its all BS because they never walk the walk.
::He would look at the Satyr.::
oh ohoh cute.
But not getting into it with you again.
If anyone else raises that point i will be happy to respond.
Not you tho. Cheers and gnite fella.
Someone else bring up Satyr.
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When you say Eredar and Draenei are you referring to Legion? or the fact Draenei exist?
refererring to the fact that each example of the legion influencing a mortal or immortal race that some sub group is able to successfully either seperate themselves or defeat the corrupted ones.
This is true for almost everyone except the orcs. Even the frost wolves eventually joined the rest of the horde.
Whats worst despite being free in multiple instances they still commit the very same acts that people condemned them for.
At what point do they stop being the victims rather than the violent blood addicts that they are?
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Satyrs (sometimes pluralized as satyr)[11] are a race of bestial demons usually sworn to the Burning Legion. They are created through the spreading of the ancient satyr curse,[12] an affliction which originated with Xavius, a Highborne sorcerer who was destroyed and remade into a demonic form as a punishment for his failures by Sargeras during the War of the Ancients. Xavius soon began spreading his cursed form to other night elves and eventually to other races as well. In modern times, satyrs mostly live in various sects throughout Kalimdor and exist only to harry their hated night elf cousins and obey the will of the Legion,[13] though others have instead sworn fealty to the Old Gods and work to spread the influence of the Emerald Nightmare.
Man sure looks like orcs don’t have the premium on corrupted race status.
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The horde is full of races that have basically bottomed out or have gone to very bad places. It is a part of their identity. Forsaken are a perfect example of this.
For me the main difference between the Alliance and the Horde is that the Alliance has always been about enduring and maintaining who they are no matter what is thrown at them while the Horde are about races that have become lost and lost who they are and instead rise up from that and make a new future for themselves in spite of their past.
That is one of the things that first attracted me to their story. Yeah the orcs are a race that were slaves to the Legion and fully involved in that but they are also one of the few races to come back from that. Perhaps they might not be what you would call fully reformed but they have clawed their way back out of that pit. That deserves some credit.
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