The writers may hate the Orcs, but at least you have to admit, they are useful for one thing:
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Wonderfully said, Aureton. It definitely feels like Blizzard is trying to have their cake and eat it too with the Badass/Evil rubberbanding.
God, I wish. My three favorite races ;-;
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Night elves, draenei, and gnomes for me… I may be a masochist.
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Night Elves, Dwarves (Dark Iron included), And Gnomes are probably my favorite races.
When it comes to Horde races, I can never tell if I like any of them or not. Sometimes I think they are cool, and sometimes I hate them.
Orcs are not evil in a conventional sense.
They even managed to have large periods of peace amongst the clans and Draenei before the Legion came.
Mostly, it’s important to view Orcs as individuals, not a collective. Orcs have the same capacity for thought and emotion as the other conventional fantasy “hero” races.
The only difference is they can activate a battle-trance when pushed to extreme limits (Bloodfrenzy.)
There have been plenty of Orcs that have done cruel and destructive things. Let them speak for themselves, not the entirety of Orcs.
Thrall, Eitrigg, And Saurfang are obvious examples of contientious, compassionate, heroic Orcs.
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The problem is that even “good” Orcs glorify the years of Demonic corruption. Thrall started his Horde with the same flag, and glorifying the leaders of the Old Horde, who were clearly evil.
Thrall adopted the same flag as the Old Horde… which should to Orcs what the N-zi flag is to Germans.
Thrall praises Ogrim, Kargath, and Grommosh, all of which are War Criminals of the First and Second War. Who all represent the history of the Orcs that Thrall feels the Orcs need to repent for.
Orcs look back on they years of demonic inspired blood lust as if it was a time of glory, when in truth, it is foundation for Orc struggle on Azeroth.
This leads me to believe that Orcs are not very smart… because to this day, the Orcs still refuse to acknowledge that the history they cling too is the catalyst for most of their troubles.
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They actually weren’t.
WOD recharacterized most of them to make them better villains. They weren’t portrayed the same way in the earlier books. (Except Blackhand.)
No, he didn’t.
All members of the Horde are equal in my eyes, <name>. We have all suffered many burdens, and if it were not for wisdom and honor, then we would be no better than the Scourge or my people while our blood was tainted by the demon Mannoroth.
It is your duty to aid the Horde and to defend our way of life. But it is also your duty to know when quarter and compassion should be given to friend and foe alike.
Understand this well. This is the new Horde, not some demon-spawned army who lack freewill.
Orgrim was recharacterized in Lord of the Clans to be a sagely, freedom-fighting grandpa. Grom matured as a character. Kargath originally was not presented as his AU WOD version. He was a generic chieftain.
No, they don’t.
They don’t cling to it. They aren’t consorting with demons now. They just want to protect their own sovereignty and raise their families.
It’s kind of hard when there’s another global world power with expansionist policies constantly challenging you (the Alliance.)
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Greetings sister Laughing Skull, for awhile I to felt how you felt. This was until I had a epiphany of what the orcs truly are, why we act this way, why they are sometimes easily corrupted. All this begins with one thing! When describing orcs, WE ARE SAVAGES, but that does not make us dumb or evil. To fully understand a Orc one must realize where we are from!
All orcs are defended from Grond, a great being born to kill the Evergrowth. Like Gronds descendants deep down inside orcs are probably more likley to be against nature, this sounds evil but from their past it makes sense. Orc nature is not Azeroth nature, Draenor has Botani, living plant people who tend to the trees and can infest biological life forms. The next closest thing to Botani are funny enough Night Elves, sure they won’t infest you but they are ruthless for their forests. Coming from a world where the Evergrowth and Botani is a huge threat I’m not surprised that orcs tend to cut down the trees and sometimes have a lack of respect for nature but still caring for the elements.
Second thing to realize when you are a Orc. We are Savage, it’s again programmed into what they are! Look at Draenor, the planet is described as a savage world where only the strongest survive! They got Ogres, Oggron, Magnaron, Botani, Wasps that lay eggs in your bodies with a sting, Massive wolves that kill nearly everything, and much more! The orcs on Azeroth aren’t so much violent as they are now on a planet that doesn’t require the amount of savagery they born to have. The orcs are savage because in their blood and home planet if they are not they will die! That is it, if you don’t overcome your environment and claim dominance it will kill you. Azeroth is a rough place too but not as naturally savage as Draenor. We orcs can seem evil because we now live in a world that is softer and tamer than our genetics are used to.
Lastly, we are not the same! Way to many times do I hear people say orcs are noble savages, that’s what they should be, and I’m sorry but that’s not entirely true… Each orcish clan is different, not all of the clans are so easily described as Noble Savages. Laughing Skull would better be described as insane savages! Bleeding hollow, religious savages! Blackrock? Dominating Savages, Warsong? Brave Savages! The only down right Noble orcs were Frostwolf and Whiteclaw clans. Now that’s not saying that most of the other clans have some sort of code of honor, note that I didn’t say honor. Ways they act and treat their enemies as culturally accepted as a code of honor. Basically even though it’s a savage world most of the clans would want to fight their opponents face to face, truly test who is the better fighter or species. Not all clans follow this path Laughing Skull orcs are likley to stab you in the back as well as the front.
Once you realize that the best defining word of orcs is savage it easily explains why certain things happened. They were tricked into demon blood, but they were chosen to receive demon blood by the legion because of what they were! The legion has not tried demons blood on humans, elves or gnomes? The only other race the legion deemed worthy enough was the Blood Totem, another race of strong warlike savages. The orcs may not have liked Teldrassil burning but inside it might have been that same war against nature, after that the honorless part does leave much to be desired. However the orcs can’t go back now, the plan was to capture the tree, that was the honorable way. The orcs may follow Sylvanas but that is only because she is the leader, at the moment she is the being that shows the most strength in that spot, in Orc traditions if they wanna take it they gotta beat her in one on one combat, most know that is unlikely. For now many orcs follow Sylvanas, but that is because of what clans they are… Frostwolves would have abandoned the fight or went somewhere neutral, but clans like Laughing Skull? I don’t see a problem with this war! Let’s make the alliance die laughing…
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They were driven by the Blood Curse the same as anyone else. That attacked Stormwind completely unprovoked, slaughtering men, women and children along the way…
Yes he did. Current Horde flag is the same as the Old Horde Flag
Still a Warlord who, after dethroning the Shadow Council, went forth to wage war against the humans, doing exactly what the Burning Legion wanted the orcs to do. Slaughtering everyone along the way.
All were War Criminals. There is such a thing as sagely war criminals.
Why else would they use the same flag and glorify the leaders of the Old Horde?
The Horde is the only one starting wars here.
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The new horde does seem to keep naming their military outposts and airships after the leaders of the old horde.
Plus Thrall is still going around wearing the armor and weapon of the old horde’s warchief. He may have been recharacterized as a freedom-fighting grandpa, but they didn’t retcon out the morally grey things Doomhammer’s horde did that would make Sylvanas jealous.
Even Grom, who’s last act was to kill the source of his corruption and thus redeem himself, should be remembered for his ability to finally overcome his lust for conquest that drove him to take demon blood in the first place. He should be honored for his love of his people, not for his battle-readiness, which was his fatal flaw and cautionary tale.
The orcs should be naming orphanages and healing clinics after Grom and Orgrim, if what they are respected for is their drive to create a home where orcs can be free and uncorrupted.
The fact that they instead name warships and military outposts after them is a sign they are honoring the Old Horde’s heroes for the wrong reasons.
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You’re now a reverse Narancia to me.
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Did he overcome his lust for conquest? He killed the source of his corruption… One might say he… conquered it…
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What was he suppose to do? The Gate had been closed, they were strangers in a strange land who just spent a good time killing off the humans. It’s not like he had any other options.
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I agree with this thread, Vozul. The only reason I got into WoW was because of the way it subverted traditional “fantasy monster” tropes and dared to make orcs (and trolls, tauren, etc) rounded, sympathetic characters with agency - people, in other words, not monsters for the heroes to kill. And yet ever since Cata Blizzard has been slowing betraying that subversion by having the “monsters” revert to type. Maybe that makes some Alliance players cheer, but what it leaves for WoW is a story that doesn’t stand out above any other generic good vs. evil high fantasy story. It’s just such a shame to me to see Warcraft squandering the one thing that made it truly unique among fantasy worlds in favor of… what? What has been gained with these storylines of over-the-top evil Horde? Again, I guess some Alliance players who really feel awesome about participating in a shallow good versus evil story are enjoying it, but that seems overshadowed to me by how much of the Horde playerbase is distraught - especially since it would not be hard to write a narrative that allowed BOTH the Alliance and Horde to have faction-pride, heroic, fistpump moments. But that’s not the narrative the Blizzard writers have decided to write, and it’s a real shame, because we’re left with the same kind of cheap, trite high fantasy that you can buy a dozen paperbacks of at the used book store.
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Because we all know an orcs greatest insecurity is negotiation.
Here is an idea… Maybe… be honest? Admit they came to this world as refuges…
They didn’t? They came in as conquers? Also why would the Humans believe them when they just sacked Stormwind?
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It’s not even good vs. evil. I mean it is, but the Horde aren’t the Sith (ironic that they have more depth than the Horde currently). The Alliance aren’t even fighting to end the Horde, but to save them from themselves.
The Horde had not yet conquered Stormwind at this time. In fact, they were just defeated by Stormwind, which is why Ogrim decided to challenge Blackhand. So he couldn’t refuse without the Horde questioning his leadership.
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Man, the new Kingdom Hearts has some weird bosses clearly.
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But the Shadow Council was still alive at this time. Gul’dan was just in a comma. They didn’t realize they were being controlled by outside forces. I thought we were talking about after Doomhammer brings down the Shadow Council completely which means the death of Gul’dan.