But you never explained what the flaw was, So you have no point
List the ones i missed then? Im almost certain i got all of them
Sin modifiers arent as strong, And they also have passive healing reduction which makes their damage harder to recover from, For Frost dk your damage is very easy to recover from because we have no healing reduction, hence why our sustain damage needs to be much higher than other specs to keep up
Pillar is 25% strength, +2% STR per rune spent, +40% Mastery with full frostwelps
From outside pillar, vs inside pillar at full effectiveness you are missing at minimum around 65% increased damage, per ability
and thats just from the damage increase values of pillar, thats not killing machine factored in
With KM factored in for obliterate its another 40-50% ontop of that 60%
Not that i personally think oblit should be where our non cd damage comes from, i believe that rightly deserves to be where froststrike comes into play, but that also has a 100% modifier attached to it so its baseline damage has to be tuned accordingly
a 100% modifier, + 25%STR +40% Mastery +15%Frost +15%STR ends up being a lot
For frost to be good outside cooldowns you need to distribute the power a bit to look like this
10% STR(pillar) +20% Mastery(welps) + 15% frost RI +15% STR FC +40% froststrike damage (shattering blade)
Base froststrike buff of 60%
The damage is just about even, but not so much of it is focused into mod stacking, and more of it is evenly baked into the baseline
The highest hits might go down slightly, But the lowest hits will rise up tremendously
23s duration, 1m cd, vs 1m cd and 12s duration on pillar. Pillar does not increase healing for frost, nor critical strike even though frost is supposedly very dependent on crit.
From the general pally tree
Ret Aura (5%)
Greater Judgement 20%,
Justification (10% to judgement)
Recompense (up to 30% of paladin HP added to Judgement) ,
Seal of Might ( 4% str, 4% mast)
Devine Purpose (you did name this one) 20%
Of Dusk and Dawn 10% to holy power spenders stacking
Seal of Order-additional 10% to spenders and faster cd on generators
Devine Toll-Judgement hits 5 targets does 100% increased dmg
Devine Resonance-Free Judgements every 5s for 15s
Ret Tree
Judgement of Justice-10% to judgement
Jurisdiction-+10% to final verdict and blade of justice
Inquisitors Ire-5% buff to Devine storm, stacks 10x. Same node also has
Tempest of the Lightbringer- 20% damage added to Devine Storm
Empyrean Legacy-Free Devine storm @ 25% (buffed by mods)
Empyrean Power-Crusader Strike has a chance to make Devine storm free and do 15% additional damage.
Vanguard of Justice- Holy power spenders use 1 additional holy power, 20% damage added.
Heart of the Crusader-Crusader Strike and auto attacks deal 10% increased damage and 10% increased critical strike damage
Highlords Judgement- target takes 20% increased damage from next 3 holy power spenders after being hit with Judgement
Penitence- 10% increase to damage over time effects
Blades of Light+Devine Arbitor- 5% increase to single target abilities plus 9k proc (depends on character stats) when Arb comes up
Final Reconing-30% increased damage taken from Holy power spenders
Burning Crusade-Devine Storm, Concecration, Devine hammer deal damage as Radiant, Radiant damage increased by 5%
You left a metric fk tonne out my brother. Youāre also not a noob, so my suggestion is that if you want to have an honest conversation you engage honestly. Ret is in a different class than any other melee except warrior even post nerfs. Added to all that damage for both Arms/Ret is the utility they bring which again, is in a different class than any other melee except rogue in pvp.
Frost dk isnāt bad because of the mods. Itās bad b/c the development team wishes it to be. Thatās the part we need to address.
But whats your point bro? Im still lost at why youre bringing this up in the first place
I left out some of the boring Flat % increases yeah mainly because if theyre on the primary path to required talents i consider it part of the baseline to the spec sorta like improved froststrike, 20% modifier to the button but on the main path tward PoF
Even with that considered though, Look at most of the modifiers you listed, All of them are very small increases so that way if you do miss 1 or 2 of these youre not losing a whole lot of damage
Compared to Frost modifiers which are whopping 100%, 40%, 60%, 100%, 60% increases on abilities. When these arent played the ability becomes essentially dead weight damage, Tickle damage
When you post on the forums also, theres only so much that can be said and understood at once before something becomes an unreadable wall of text, So some things arent worth mentioning for the sake of ease of understanding to the masses. The best thing you can do is take the best examples
And the dev team made it bad because they made it modifier heavy and dependent
100% for certain, if they just lowered the power of the mods, and distributed the power into the core, and focused on functionality over sheer power the spec would improve
Functionality>raw power means stuff like 15s duration pillar but at reduced strength gain, & unnerfed icecap
until then, the playstyle will remain garbage, and it wont benefit enough from staying in melee to play like a plate spec
Motfw is supposed to make every auto crit proc KM. They cant make it any better unless they get away from the proc on crit design and go back to the ppm style auto attack it had.
Wings is also somewhat different than Pillar. If wings had a capstone talent that made it so every other GCD was a holy power spender its duration would be nerfed as well. You have to build 4 HP now (was 3) so the duration makes a little more sense to me.
My point is that ret isnāt crippled by having a lot of mods, neither is assassination or demo or arms etc. The dev team made Frostās mods like that because the baseline for a lot of their abilities is in the toilet. Rets top end is better than frost still even though they have a much higher basement than frost.
If what youāre suggesting is get rid of the mods and boost the baseline to compensate Iād get behind that. I donāt think we need to go after Pillar though, because of how easy it is to shut down in PvP.
My other major beef is that Razor Ice/Bonegrinder are super unreliable in PvP. When I vs a FDK as unholy I intentionally yank them off teammates to stop that stacking up and I had people doing the same to me with cc last night when I played it in solo. Sort of hilarious doing 80-90k and maybe getting 50%of someoneās health. Outside Pillar BG is not a reliable multiplier. The Ret ones for example just happen. Most of Frostās come with game play adjustments. Stacking Razorice, unleashed frenzy, Bonegrinder, Shattering strikes are all way slower to get going where Rets mods are fire and forget.
So in my mind the power of the frost mods is a little more justified but man are they bloody clunky. Ret and frost make a better contrast because neither have Mortal Strike and both are centralized around the idea of big thumping globals. If you were wondering why Iām not measuring up frost to War or WW monk.
Oh something else I noticed there is an asinine amount of damage built into frost fever. That seems a bigger offender than the mods because not many mods affect it and yet it was my number 2 damage ability at the end of 6 rounds of shuffle. 15k ticks with no mastery. Having that much in a slow hitting no punish for dispel dot on a striking class is nuts. Half that damage should be moved into howling and frost strike in my mind.
Ah but they could make KM better if they made it so that every Obliterate Crit was automatically converted to full frost damage. IE make KM a one chance related proc instead of a proc gated behind a 50% chance on Crit so twice gated.
Obliteration could just be changed to make all Obliterates be auto Crit during pillar for example.
Ret has many talents and augments that add in the extra holy power needed to play ret in wings like Oblit Frost. They just arenāt represented in a single capstone. So ret gets the same benefits with nearly none of the drawbacks and the added bones of extra Crit chance.
Rets modifiers arent also 65% increases, 100% increases, 60% increases, across the board but are instead much smaller 10% increases generally speaking
Ret was crippled for the entire time right up until the very recent rework and previous and extensive buffs on all their sustain abilities
Assassination is not comparable stop trying to do so, they have a mortal strike and thats part why their sustain damage feels the way it does because its harder to recover from 25%-40% reduced healing
ive been saying its literally been
I never said the modifiers needed to be deleted, I said power needed to be shifted out of them into the baseline of the kit, So that way when you DONT play those modifier talents you arent completely useless. It actually becomes a choice at that point
And i never went after pillar either, What i suggested was a change for pillar not just a flat nerf
Reduced power, Longer duration, Faster icecap value = more overall uptime of pillar which by extension makes the class feel better to play and also less frontloaded to have all its damage come only during PoF windows
If PoF gives less strength, The baseline can be tuned up, And the net gain would be functionality from being inside PoF windows for obliteration longer, but at the cost of sheer power. Its easy to shut down right now BECAUSE its a 12s duration cooldown, its 12s long because it gives a whopping 25% strength that upscales, ontop of 40% mastery from welps
Those have to be nerfed if duration is to be increased, If duration is increased, 1 disarm wont hurt your burst window as bad
Yup hence why power needs to be taken away to leave room for functionality. a common theme you see littered all throughout frosts kit
Nerf bonegrinder from 20% to 10%. Reduce the stacks needed to 3, double the crit % gain per stack and allow it to linger even after BG procs the frost damage
Change razorice to max out at 3 stacks but keep the same value
Theyre clunky because theyre powerful, dont forget that. Theyd be more gameplay accessible and gameplay friendly if there was less raw power baked into it but for the benefit of improved functionality
which looks like longer PoF windows, Faster icecaps, Less powerful shattering blades but consuming less stacks and requiring less stacks, RI building faster to max stacks, Nerfed gathering storm damage for increased duration etc etc
Lots of the tuning of frost dk is designed around being glued to a raid boss, So obviously in pvp its a lot harder to get value from the things weāre supposed to because we have to stack and maintain so many buffs at once without being stopped at all
considering outside PoF you spend the whole game running away and spamming chains im not surprised a dot that passively ticks the entire game competes in damage that way but i agree on the principle that frost shouldnt rely on dot damage in any way the way that unholy should
Considering that no other class that I play has things clunky because powerful img calling bs on that my brother. Unholy is smoother, my rogue and ret are butter smooth next to frost. In PvP. Ret and arms are both super smooth and super powerful in PvP. I donāt play arms but I have a lot of friends that do and they donāt have the same issues with being clunky.
Not really making KM better though with making obliterate crits being frost damage. Just takes pressure off of KM procs.
Judgement and blade of justice both generate 2, wake generates 3, crusader strike is still 1 but there are things to be done with that. Its just not this weaving thing going on.
It actually is because youāve removed one layer of RNG which is a pretty huge layer, considering its a 50% chance based on your crit rating.
Right thatās baseline, there are talents in the ret tree that create more holy power for those abilities such as Templar Slash/Crusading strikes, each replace Crusader strike and generate 2 holy power. You can talent to have 2 charges of Blade or have it generate an additional holy power, canāt remember if thatās a choice on the same node or if theyāre seperate.
Itās time to revisit frost dk as a whole to be honest. The difference in damage for oblit in pillar and out is WAY too big to be fun. You shouldnāt have it hitting 10k then 100k + in cds, it is just bad.
nah, id rather they just make froststrike, howling blast, soulreaper, and remorseless winter do considerably higher damage. Obliterate should do noodle damage outside burst and proc, its a builder spam ability
but hey if they wanna commit the time to do a full fdk rework im not against it, just seems a lot harder to do that than just making our buttons actually do damage
Then Obliterate needs a considerable nerf for that to happen because there is nowhere else to pull that damage from. I dont know why you cant understand the concept that there are dps limits and balance, but Obliteration builds do not have the budget to do what you want. PvE balance has priority over PvP balance whether you like it or not.
But go ahead, nerf Obliterate, buff up these other abilities (along with BoS because it would need a slight buff since Obliterate would need a nerf to achieve what you want) and then listen to all the people for another expansion complain at how poor Obliterate baseline damage is.
Obliterate is not a just a builder, this is such a silly notion people have started saying. All rune and RP spells are both builders AND spenders. You canāt let yourself box these spells into this category of āoh it builds rp thus it should do no damageā. That wasnāt the case for FAR longer than it has been the case. This all started with frost damage oblit and has been a massive design issue since and hampered the specās damage spread.
They need to nerf the multipliers to oblit and buff base oblit. There is a middle ground between doing 5 times the damage in cds (how it currently is) and just flatlining the damage.
Oblit hitting so hard in cds is not healthy for the spec when the general gameplay out of cds suffers so much.