Frost - 2 of our capstones are completely unusable because of the pvp modifiers or functionality. Why is it that so many other specs have a powerful offensive CD on 1-2m, and frost big 3m CD FwF is only 33% in pvp? It crits for 40k if you’re lucky. Less than a rotational ability like frost strike if it crits. Rets are still out here hitting 100k plus post nerfs stil amung many other classes, why can’t our actual offensive CD do damage?
Unholy - the disease nerf crippled the spec for PVP. The rot and sustained damage is mediocre now especially with higher versatility and health pools, I don’t even think if they reverted the nerf,it would be as OP as it was from the start of the season
22 Likes
as it should be you dont want to buff weird 1 hit abilities like FwF and crux frost into relying on that button to deal damage
I think there is a middle ground. Maybe make it hit for the same damage as obliterate at least?
3 Likes
I get your point, but as it stands right now FDK is one of the lowest threats in pvp. Pillar means auto disarm and can be dealt with easily. FDK needs to be something to be weary of from others. And a hard hitting offensive CD to do raw damage as it’s intention is, should do that
2 Likes
That offensive CD being FwF would make you hate the spec even more. You think you want this but you dont bro
You hate being cruxed into pillar to do damage dont you? you hate getting all your damage wasted cause 1 disarm dont you?
You realize cruxing yourself into a CD thats 3x as long of a CD would create the exact same issue but actually 3x worse considering if you mess up yout FwF now its waiting 3m to do damage again rather than 1m
You hate pillar being so countered by disarm? Start asking for longer pillar duration, it wasnt always this miniscule 12s we see today, that change happened this expansion it should be reverted back to the 15s duration it had before
Your actual issue with frost doing no damage outside our cds comes from 2 reasons
1: PoF is 25% strength, plus more every rune spent
2: Certain talents in our frost tree provide to large of an increase to core rotational abilities, Shattering blade is a 100% buff to froststrike, And Icebreaker is a 60% buff ST for howling blast
How do you buff froststrike to deal 30k on average without cds when you have to factor in how hard itll hit with full cds, and then a 100% shattering blade ontop of it
How do you buff baseline howling blast to be around 30k when you have to factor in the existence of icebreaker with full cds
If you want to be less gimmicky, We need longer PoF (15s), Less powerful PoF, Less powerful shattering blade and icebreaker, And then we’ll be talking
If you really wanna go the extra mile into making our class actually feel good to play and encourage us to remain in melee doing damage, Unnerf icecap a tiny bit as well so we can farm PoF slightly faster maybe before most disarms come back which is a 45s CD
Weaker pillar, with longer duration, with faster cooldown reduction is the best possible thing that can happen to frost dk rn, Followed by an increase in all our rotational buttons damage after nerfing some respective talents
2 Likes
Mortal strike and TV say high brother. On 1or 2 minute cds they do far more damage and neither arms nor ret is punished for it.
Obliterate does so little damage outside cds that it would be laughable to compare oblit to either of the above outside cds, and oblit is our biggest hit in cds, which as pointed out can be shut down super easy.
Also going to point out that no other spec gets shut down as hard by disarm as frost.
Let’s stop pretending that the devs incur penalties for having good performance, if that were true ret arms and demo wouldn’t exist by this point.
4 Likes
This topic is about pvp modifiers, you bring up good points and good ideas, but many other specs have both sustain, and raw damage cooldowns or burst. I don’t see why we couldn’t have that ourselves
5 Likes
Personally, I think we could do both. Having less of our damage focused entirely upon a Pillar that’s shorter than Punch Out’s Little Mac, with IB and SB getting damage transferred to the base abilities, would be nice. Then, we can unnerf FWF in PvP so that Frost can use Soulreaper, Critbliterate, and FWF in the hopes of keeping the enemy low enough so that Soulreaper finishes them off.
…This is also assuming Soulreaper gets an improvement, likely through a slight damage buff and through costing RP.
I would personally like a longer Pillar though. In keys, I feel if even the slightest thing goes wrong (anti-melee attack, Quaking with 3 Melee DPS and a Tank, target change mechanics, Frigid Executioner not playing nice, etcetera) my entire Pillar suddenly disappears and I have 2 seconds to smash my FWF key. Having an extra 3 seconds to get in maybe 1 or 2 extra Obliterates would be nice, even if the strength gain from PoF is lowered.
2 Likes
god could they at least unnerf the duration modifier if they’re gonna keep it this weak damage wise.
Mortalstrike and Templars verdict are rotational abilities not 3m AoE cooldowns
Obliterate being a builder is why it does 0 damage outside CDs, Because BoS exists
its remedied for obliteration because of Frost killing machines which is a proc and actually healthy for obliterate as it controls when it hits really hard vs when its weak and used as a builder
Somewhat true, but there are specs that exist which do get greatly affected by disarm even still, For frost this issue got alleviated with double stack KM a little bit and the only other thing i can think of to help it a little bit more would be to make Pillar of Frost last 15s again, and to unnerf icecap a little bit
All of my points are that we could, but its not going to be because you unnerfed the pvp modifier on frostwyrms fury, If you want frost dk to feel like it has good sustain and damage during burst you just have to change pillars duration, icecaps CDR, And adjust our core abilities to hit harder base, which comes at the cost of pillars frontloaded strength increase or at the cost of the power of specific talents like icebreaker and shattering blade
The higher those specific modifiers are, (PoF, Icebreaker, Shattering Blade, Even the remorseless talents,) the lower the baseline will be because that has to be directly adjusted in a way to account for the insane increases
You guys really just dont understand how toxic FWF would be if it got unnerfed literally at all, A properly setup FWF inside of PvP, with a crit, will hit as hard as obliterate will, and thats at 33% effectiveness bro.
Now imagine you unnerf it, and then you FWF a team of 3 in arena, youd nearly one shot all of them for free, Lets take it a step further imagine youre doing rbgs and frost DK is literally unstoppable because every 1.5m they can AoE stun your whole team with a FWF that does 50-60% of all 10 players healthpools
During the beta of BFA, I got to do a lot of testing with non pvp modifer reduced frostwyrms and even coldheart, trust me it was braindead those nerfs are there for a reason
FWF is best left as utility, We are lucky that it hits as hard as it does for what it is. That doesnt mean it hits SUPER HARD it just means the ability is intended as a AoE stun for PvP, Not for damage, Its damage is just the cherry on top
changes like this are far superior to adjusting 3m cooldowns just always keep that in mind
yes, ideally a 3 minute cd has far more value because it’s used every 3m and not 2-6 seconds. I use Garg for Unholy or Death mark for assassination and those are doing more than regular rotational abilities, or hugely augmenting them, the power isn’t a 3s stun which happens to be secondary.
Makes zero sense with Breath being gutted in PvP, and less when you factor in awful Frost strike damage. Shadow Strike outside dance has no where near the low tuning that Oblit does, neither does Incinerate or any other builder. Doing 4x damage isn’t an argument either; plenty of classes hit as hard or slightly less hard but more when they’re using cds.
So you’re trying to say that a % chance of a % chance is control. Must be pillar. BTW the ‘healthy’ game design only applies to a low number of specs, those specs are at the bottom. I get that Marxism is everywhere now but the problem here is really the ‘have nots’ and not the ‘haves’ because the ‘have nots’ were designed to have not.
LoL 100% true, I can still garrote on my rogue when disarmed. No other spec has as much of their damage baked into their go as Frost, or has their damage floor tuned so low which is why disarm is worse for them. Outlaw as an example has long cds and does more sustained outside its go window than frost for example. So would any other melee. Unholy being the least punished by disarm followed by ret.
Objectively no, as pointed out this standard does not apply to several top classes in pvp. If you want to be ‘balanced’ then enjoy where you are now in terms of performance. If you want the spec to be good which is actually healthy its going to need a lot of help b/c design.
I’ve seen way worse. This knee jerk virtue signaling is…off putting. BTW ever see what happens when Ret/War/Dh T-up uncontested while sitting in Limb/Beam? 100% hp gone in 5s or less. Sooooo same difference. I was playing unholy for that, DH/War literally wiped a team at flag in EOTS in seconds doing what I just said. Totally fine because it’s not DK, right brother?
Solo killed rbg’s anyway, most of the player base took solo as a gearing path because it was seen as the path of least resistance. This could have been a great rbg season if rewards were tuned right, ah well.
I see no reason why Frost Strike can’t be substantially buffed in pvp, and Obliterate’s damage needs to come up at the baseline. A lot. Probably 75% of what it is now, only at baseline or the ‘low roll.’ RW also needs to be buffed, essentially everything not Frost Fever.
Also lets be real, you have to make layered mistakes to die to FDK even when they are great, like in WoD. Many classes have lots and lots of tools to deal with FDK if they don’t know that or mistakenly don’t do anything about it that’s their issue.
I’ll never understand the mentality of ‘when dk is good its the class’ vs 'any other class being good (not ret) is the player, class is fine nothing to see here ’ which is applied as an absolute by some people.
2 Likes
Garg doesnt have an additional talent node that cuts its CD in half and then makes it aoe stun everyone, Frostwyrms does
So in actuality, Trying to suggest FWF needs a buff to suit its “3m” cooldown is just dishonest because if you ever play FWF in pvp its to use it as dragon stun
In pvp, The ability is Utility>Damage
I dont disagree, This class is disgustingly pitiful and absolutely rage inducing, I absolutely hate how the devs ruined it. Its extremely inefficient outside burst
You cant just say objectively and then follow it by a vague comparison to invisible classes that apparently are exempt from the invisible rule you made up
Heres the facts homie, Frost isnt actually that doomer bad as you think, Its biggest issues are tuning issues followed by extremely dead talents that dont do anything for the spec
All the tuning issues exist because deathknight unlike many other classes have a large array of compounding stacking modifiers that all happen to be very powerful. Lets compare
Ret has
Judgement 20%
Final Reck 15%
Wings 10%
dusk and dawn 10%
divine purpose 15%
divine arbiter 5%
vanguard of justice 15%
judgments of justice 10%
Frost dk has
Unholy strength 15%
Razorice 15%
Pillar of frost 25% + 1 per rune
Bonegrinder 20%
Unleashed frenzy 6%
Rune mastery 6%
Shattering blade 100%
Brittle 6%
Icebreaker 60%
Might of the frozen wastes 30%
Frigid executioner 15%
Frostwelps aid 40%
Improved Froststrike 20%
Enduring strength 20%
Rime 375%
everfrost 60%
Gathering storm 100%
biting cold 30%
piercing chill 10%-90% stacking
Do you see the difference here? Not only do we have significantly more talents that only provide raw % increases to our abilities, But also all the raw increases are significantly more powerful than those of ret
So when youre developing a game with that in mind, The only answer to keeping a class with insane modifiers fair and not the God spec of all warcraft, Is tuning the abilities that are affected by the modifiers to be extremely weak at their inherent baseline.
The only possible way you fix this issue is to reduce the % increases of the modifiers and give it to the core kit to distribute the power, or you remove a large amount of the modifiers that may be unnecessary to even exist and bake it into the classes core, and then replace the removed modifiers with other talents that are actually interested or impact the rotation
I dont care, And saying things like that prove the motive here isnt to have a well designed class thats skillful to use and fair to play but rather be the Godmode free win spec that does everything better than everyone
As an experienced player, im telling you its because shattering blade exists at 100% of an increase in power, as well as 25% strength pillar of frost + the other 100000 micro modifiers we have ontop of it
The answer is simple, It can be buffed, It should be buffed, around the 50-80% range to start, But if you ONLY buff it by that percentage, Then im telling you beyond a shadow of a dobut youll start criting 300k froststrikes with shattering blade when healthpools are still around 430,000
Peak froststrikes are already around 100,000-130,000, The issue is its impossible to reliably stack all the necessary 10000 modifiers at the same time, and then critically strike ontop of it, While the enemy player doesnt have a defensive cooldown active.
If you buff baseline obliterate, you are also buffing killing machine obliterate. Its not possible to buff one without the other
What is possible is to nerf the Strength Gain from Pillar of frost, So that when you DO buff obliterate damage, Its not being as buffed from Pillar, And the damage lost and the damage gained evens out. It achieves the same effect of buffing the low end but keeping the high end the same
This is all ive been trying to tell you and other dks on these forums, You all clearly want the same thing i do, Buff to sustain without harming the burst much, The only way you get this done is nerf the burst modifiers we have, and prune the micro modifiers we have like Brittle, unleashed frenzy etc
Completely agree, playing frost feels a lot like not winning from my own skill and outplay potential, but rather winning off the opponents compounding failures they shouldnt be making
Playing my ret/war feels like i can win off of my own self, and my own gameplay rather than waiting for people to mess up to capitalize
1 Like
I take it Frost still builds vers mastery for pvp? The reason why Obliterate does “0” damage outside of CD’s is because no KM procs thus no Frostreaper Obliterates and the CD gives KM procs. This has absolutely nothing to do with BoS and everything to do with ignoring crit and Frostreaper. People just dont like BoS so they will blame every little thing on it.
You just have to follow the progression of Frost development to see when the complaints started. KM rank 2 introduction that was accompanied by a nerf to balance out the spec.
I cant believe people are still blaming BoS for what has been clear since SL beta.
You dont play the game, Your opinion is invalid.
BoS is at fault, People dont stack crit because its our weakest stat objectively speaking, Haste accomplishes the same linier increases as crit does without becoming useless inside PoF windows
Pillar of Frost was tuned specifically for BoS, Hence why it now ramps up in strength over time because as you use BoS you mash obliterate over and over to maintain runic power. If you played the game instead of living on the forums and wasting your life like you do you might know this but all you have is the opinions of others who tell you how things actually are
You wanna know why obliterate does no damage outside cooldowns? Not because of Frostreaper its actually because of it being a spam button you mash for BoS to ramp strength. Its because PoF is a 25% increase to strength. So they cant properly tune baseline obliterate to be more powerful without it affecting KM obliterates. KM obliterates occur most often during this 25% ramping strength window which is an absolutely ridiculously high modifier let alone after youve smashed a couple of rune spenders into it as well
Ive made plenty of very in depth posts explaining the problem our class has by the existence of all the stacking modifiers in our tree. We have bullcrap micro modifiers, Insane massive talent modifiers, Proc modifiers that we all dont need
Unleashed frenzy isnt needed, It exists for BoS, Its a lazy and boring way to passively and lightly increase our damage during BoS windows. And the spec is absolutely tuned around its existence
We dont need brittle, Its a lazy boring 6% damage increase proced by our dot with a miniscule duration.
We dont need Rune mastery, Another lazy boring increase to our damage we gain passively and randomly from attacking
Just from those 3 talents we’re talking 6% str 6% str 6% damage
roughly 18% increased damage 2 from random boring uncontrolable procs, and 1 from spending runic power, And thats just the micro modifiers. Our core kit could already be 18% stronger baseline if these BORING and uninspired talents didnt exist, We wouldnt need to be all gimicky and rely on procing these things in a row to get max value out of our class if they didnt exist and rather something actually interesting or actively useful existed in their place
Now lets get to the massive problem modifiers, Dont worry kelliste as someone who actively plays the game ill let you in on the real issues now
Improved Rime, Icebreaker, Everfrost, Gathering Storm, Shattering Blade, Frostwelps Indignation
Improved rime: 75% increased rime damage (total is now 375% from 300%)
Icebreaker: On ST increase rime to 435% (massive jump for 1 talent node but since HB is a cleave/aoe ability who cares could still be nerfed a bit to bake some of its power into the core
Everfrost/Gathering Storm: Both massive increases to remorseless winter damage, Plays a massive part in why remorseless tickle is as bad as it is when you dont play their respective talents. Why add remorseless to our base kit, if its literally a completely useless abilities until you take its talents? The design for frost dk seems to be here have a bunch of useless abilities that only get good when you hard talent into making them good
Shattering Blade: 100% (double) froststrikes damage when consuming 5stacks of RI. While this talent might be interesting, To much power is baked into this 1 talent node. And baseline froststrike has to be tuned with this modifier in mind otherwise we’d soon see 300k froststrikes on a regular occurrence. So why does froststrike feel like noodlestrike? Shattering blade is to powerful thats why. to much power in 1 place
Frostwelps indignation: 8% mastery per stack, 5 stacks, total of 40% mastery.
So our damage is at all times 40% weaker because the game has to account for when we burst we can achieve up to a whopping 40% damage increase from just frostwelps, let alone the 25% strength from PoF that upscales
You understand yet?
DK does 0 damage outside cooldowns, Not because fRoStReApEr like you think, But actually because pillar of frost is so dumb
Ya man cause let my damage increase by a whopping 60% when i press pillar of frost that makes 100% sense right?
Lets tune all dk abilities to deal 0 damage outside cooldowns because man oh man when you DO press cooldowns you nearly land a 60% increase to all your abilities
Ontop of that lets further funnel into this problem by cruxing their howling blast and froststrike into other talent nodes that provide 60%-100% increases to those abilities respectively so when you dont play those talents you have absolutely nothing to work with
5 Likes
Bro blizz needs you on the DK team
1 Like
theres legit just to many modifiers man. So many talents in our tree arent actually gameplay impacting as opposed to literally just being flat % increases to the damage of abilities
Its lazy, and bad design.
Either its a billion micro modifiers that we dont need, or a few extremely powerful modifiers that are to strong and impactful, so when they arent active we have literally nothing
Gut frostwelps mastery increase, Gut shattering blade damage increase, Half icebreakers effectiveness, Remove and replace improved rime and bake it into regular rime, Bake a lot of the lost damage into the core
Remove/replace brittle
Remove/replace rune mastery
Remove/replace unleashed frenzy
Micro modifiers such as these are lazy, uninspired, Only exist to fill talent spots, And do contribute to the insane low baseline our class suffers from. In theory if you were to stack all 3 of those modifiers together at the proper time youre looking at nearly a 20% increase to your abilities which is basically wings
How am i expected to stack Brittle, Rune Mastery, And unleashed Frenzy at the same time exactly? Let alone stack those 3 with Fallen Crusader, Gladiators Insignia, PoF and 5stack Frostwelps
Literally 1 billion modifiers for what?
Rework inexorable assault to suit obliteration more rather than just a boring 3k damage ontop of oblit
Add another way to heal a constant stream of damage as opposed to mashing deathstrike, Restore deathstrikes original design which is an Anti 1 shot self heal but make it awful at consistent healing like it currently is
If froststrike is good enough, Which it wont ever be until shattering blade is nerfed and some of its power baked into the core, Then we wouldnt be spamming abilities like deathstrike so much which contributes to the false idea that dk is “unkillable”
Maybe dks wouldnt spam deathstrike if we actually lost legitimate damage by doing so
2 Likes
BoS is not at fault.
People dont stack crit because Obliteration gives KM and people put all of their eggs in the same basket then whine about disarms.
Pillar was not tuned specifically for BoS. The stacking str was introduced in BFA and BoS was not the go to build the entire expansion. That stacking strength was to increase the skill ceiling why making certain points you would want to use things like Cold Heart and FwF (when you have more strength). So instead of just using pillar and then just using whatever, you wanted to build up your strength for stronger hits from certain abilities.
I dont know how you can speak so highly of yourself and get things so wrong. Its just sad.
I know why Obliterate does no damage outside of CD’s Frostreaper. I already debunked your bad take on why Pillar ramps in strength. It wasnt for BoS but for these hard hitters and to increase the skill ceiling. Something people have asked for for quite a while. You can say it was because of BoS, but thats just you pulling stuff from the void where nothing exists in the first place. Whine and moan about BoS all you want to, YOU ARE WRONG.
Also they cant tune baseline Obliterate independently from the overall damage. Baseline Obliterate impacts the top. Just so you can understand and so that other people can understand this concept, you cant raise the floor of something without impacting where the roof will be.
The only way to really do this is either redesign Frostreaper or nerf mastery and then buff Everything to compensate for it. For someone that “plays the game” this should be obvious, as obvious as an exit sign over a door when you are trying to find the exit.
We also know EXACTLY when the talk about baseline Obliterate started, SL beta when they introduced KM rank 2 (Frostreaper). You have to either be willfully ignorant or just lying because you hate BoS to not see this.
While we dont need these upkeep buffs or stuff to keep track of, its a way to increase the skill ceiling by having something to track. You are just making my case for me here in that you just want to be OP and just have Obliterate spam.
Improved Rime/Rime in general, Icebreaker is needed. Sorry but if you played at all prior to Legion you should know why it exists in the way that it does. Especially now when Obliterates baseline is low due to Frostreaper. I dont want to see you whine about having to use HB as a rune spender and have nothing left for Obliterate when KM procs which is what would happen with Frosts current design. HB took over Obliterate in WoD with DW in single target. KM could be used on Frost Strike at that time.
Everfrost/Gathering storm also raises the skill ceiling, more evidence that you just want an easy mongo spec that just presses Obliterate.
Shattering Blade is contradictory to what you want to do with RI. BoS doesnt take it either. But ill tell you why Frost Strike feels like crap. Because Obliterate is taking up 50%+ of the overall budget when it comes to Obliteration builds. This should be blatantly obvious.
ALso, with that entire list of modifiers, why did you leave out Frostreaper? Its a modifier as well. Soooo… why? If you think modifiers are egregious then you should have pointed this out as well. But you didnt. This modifier paired with the rest is causing the issues. But since its on Obliterate you want to ignore it because you are easily amused by flashy numbers and want the spec to be Obliterate spam.
Because it’s literally the only viable option if you pvp with FDK. Your only damage window is PoF obliteration build
You’re not gonna be able to keep track of 6+ modifiers in PVP let alone get that golden window, it’s not skill cap, it’s useless micro buffs bloating the spec.
The real obliterate spam is your oh so love for BoS. It’s literally the only thing you press aside from consuming rime.
Because the amount of KM procs you get isn’t greatly increased by crit for 2h in pvp. Proc rate isn’t a 50% chance from what I can see so it would be self defeating, it’s not that FDK players like stacking Mastery it’s that they are literally forced to because of mechanics. I’ve tried a crit build vs a mast build. The difference outside the go still slants to mastery because frost fever. Which is really really bad design when you think about it b/c while FF does more than VP it’s less than deep wounds or rupture or garrote for example. 2h is supposed to be ‘big hits’ even moreso b/c we have no MS in that spec.
Stop beating the dead horse that was rank 2 oblit. That’s not why the spec is suffering in pvp. It’s not b/c breath either.
This I agree with, no one uses it in pvp because it’s value against players has been reduced to nill.
Ok but looking at Avenging Wrath and the ret tree I can see that there is a flaw in your logic. Also Ret has as many mods as Frost; not sure why you left out half the list of ret mods lol.
Same with Assassination. Mods everywhere, and they don’t suck outside cds.