The time is here to revisit DK pvp modifiers

Classes Death Knight
59

I dont think Frost Strike being removed from KM was because of Masterfrost. It could be certainly, but I think its because people dont want to make decisions and complain when they have to, or if a proc is eaten when they dont want it to be eaten by that ability.

I wasnt saying we ignore KM procs, but we did ignore an entire aspect of the spec. By basically dropping Obliterate outside of single uses to spend on unholy runes, or just dropping it completely and used Plague Strike to spend the Unholy Rune, we never got Rime procs. Not that it was needed since you just used Rime, it still removed part of the spec.

Killing Machine is one of the strongest procs in the game. Its like a 6x increase in Obliterate damage without anything else. No trinkets, no modifiers (outside of automatic ones with RI). Other things are strong as well, but if people want to get away from the importance of CD’s you have to look what the CD does. Pillar just increases strength baseline. A 12 second window of a strength increase gets better as the expansion goes on, but thats not really enough to be a complaint. Pillar + Obliteration is a whole different story. A Strength increase + forced procs. Thats going to put a lot of importance on a CD window. Im sure you can agree with that. Thats what im talking about.

I was looking at pve for this number. And the 80k and 160k figures was to get a 120k average if Frostreaper was removed giving Obliterate a more stable output and achieving the same thing while buffing pvp from the looks of it. PvE is the primary balancing factor even though Blizzard can do pvp modifiers. So whatever it can do in pve will influence what happens in pvp.

I tried watching some people play Frost in pvp and they just butchered it completely to the point I couldnt watch. Obliterating in Pillar windows with no KM procs, ignoring rime procs to gain a KM proc. Couldnt watch it.

60

Na the devs said at the time that they wanted to kill MF and KM Frost strikes were as they thought nearly as important as howling. The ‘last straw’ for them (irony cuz it’s their game and design) was Frost using all its runes on howling/deathsyphon/chains in pvp in Warlords.

Also obliterate weaving is proof that we weren’t ‘ignoring’ any mechanics. One plague strike then the oblit because hopfully you fished a km from ps if not you just spammed howling because obliterate was tuned like trash. The devs created a problem with bad tuning that the player base solved, the devs as usual hated that and the players asked for a better solution. What we got was great in legion but also backhanded because the spec was never as good or fun after the middle of legion season 2 when the nerfs came in to breath and machine gun got killed for whatever idiot reason.

Devine toll is 5x just by itself, then there are several other mods for judgement which bring it up to 8 or 9x.

Lets look at what we actually get for mods on Obliterate shall we? Using my dk as an example for the mastery number.

Mastery 50%
Improved Obliterate-10%
Frigid Executioner-15%
Bone Grinder-20%
Pillar of Frost-25%
Frost Whelp-max 40%
Razor Ice-30%

Where is the 6x? Also please tell me the entirety of the Frost dk community forgot to add the Crit damage multiplier when claiming the 6x? Which if true, is very intellectually dishonest and should null the opinion of anyone spouting that nonsense because everyone has access to the 150%/200% damage on critical strike. 150% is upcoming in pvp, right now its 175% instead of 200%

Please show me this mysterious 6x multiplier, how it’s achieved in formula. If it comes from Biceps or someone IDC I’d just like to actually see that break down.

No sorry not having this argument when other modifiers achieve the same if not better results. As I showed above. Mortal Strike/Judgement/RSK etc all end up being 3-6x regular damage off modifiers or effects, and some of these are mortal strikes on top of that which increases damage against the effective health pool of a player. Which means it’s another 2-3x on top of whatever mods are already there. Esp with dampening because they stack.

Ok going off pve is a really poor way to parse anything because player skill is a real thing. Versatility, Disarms, Defensives that cut down damage or absorb it are all things that take down oblit damage.

Not so, things are buffed against npcs and not buffed against players and vice versa all the time. You’ll see it in patch notes, ‘ability x buffed by % y (not applied in player vs player)’ is how it looks.

The second people drop the foolish notion that everything needs to be a trade off (hint warriors and rets are trading nothing for their amazing kits) the better off this community will be. This is why I don’t main the class anymore, the devs and player base love being balanced at the bottom. Every time people ask for ‘buffs’ its either things that would directly nerf the spec or move performance in a horizontal line, both are pointless.

Also Frost reaper isn’t 6x. That’s a falsehood. It converts KM Oblit to pure frost damage. In my case my mastery is 50%, and playing 2h I have no fast way to stack razorice so my first ‘go’ is usually with someone having 1-2 stacks of RI. Go 2 is on whoever has full stack and no trinket/defensives when heals has no trinket.

2 Likes
61

They shouldnt have designed the game that way then. Just like now runes just go to a very limited number of abilities no matter the game mode. I also specifically being in the WoD beta and it was all there from haste not reducing downtime to issues with the base design.

When i say 6x im talking about base damage so like 5-6k baseline and then when KM procs you get a 32k Obliterate. Mine tuned out to be a 5.9× increase over baseline when you press the button (with RI stacked). Less in pvp, and less without the tier set bonus.

PvE is the primary game mode for tuning, thats the only reason i used it. It influences pvp, pvp doesnt influence pve anymore really. Any pve buffs or nerfs are overall buffs or nerfs. Pvp buffs or nerfs are only for pvp.

When i get KM procs my Obliterates with no other buffs but RI is increasing the damage of my obliterates from 5-6k to 31-32k. Thats just mastery RI and the forced crit. Nothing else. Not even FC.

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Yeah, so 2x of that is critical strike damage modifier. Which is one of my major points in the last post, you can’t leave mods like that out intentionally or not. That 200% is massive, everyone gets it, and some classes have added Crit damage on top of that.

My eviscerate hits for 170k top end with all my sub roge mods, but is gutted in PvP. I’d have to wait to log in and look at the base but I can tell you that Evis is doing nearly 10x damage after being modded in PvE. Which is fine because the power for sub is the finishers generators and melee and it’s a good distribution between the three.

63

Im talking about the proc. The crit component is part of KM as well as Frostreaper which is just KM rank 2. The proc used to be just a 2x increase. But its not anymore.

Im at almost 60% mastery. So the roughly 8k tooltip damage gets another 4-5k added on due to Frostreaper + mastery then RI is another 15% then the crit which equals out to a 5.9x increase in Obliterate damage over pressing the button without it. That is extremely strong with just 1 proc. One of the strongest in the game.

64

this is really disjointed and hard to follow. I’d need to see the actual formula you’re using not tooltip with some random % increases and numbers which look a little suspect. Also you’ve added more mods in than just KM btw, so again in conjunction with miss representing crit damage earlier the claim that KM is the strongest proc in the game isn’t correct.

It also doesn’t explain why other classes have access to abilities that hit harder under optimal conditions while doing far more damage outside optimal conditions, meaning cds.

What does make sense is that so much of the damage is baked into Breath that the development team and the player base make the woeful miscalculation that everything needs to be bad outside breath instead of designing a talent that is a mutually exclusive choice between Breath and a non breath build. Because right now we don’t have that. You could pick up Breath and Obliteration if you wanted to, I have no idea how that would perform but I can’t see the devs liking that b/c fun detected.

So the actual spec value of KM oblierate isn’t 5.9x, using your number in good faith. It’s 3.9x because, wait for it, crit damage modifier applies to everyone equally. I’m not saying don’t count the damage, I’m saying you don’t get to count it for KM and only KM like it doesn’t exist for other classes. Crit is a proc.

The perception that this is the strongest proc in the game can also be de bunked another way though, other classes hit harder on proc or without procs. The reason Frost is where it is in pve isn’t because of Obliterate its b/c Breath. We know this b/c oblit damage in breath builds is terrible.

If KM Oblit was one of the strongest procs in the game (Howling is stronger btw as per mods, 4x, .6x,.75x) 2h frost or dw using Obliterate would be doing far better than they are in pvp and pve and have better rep. When you look at the damage breakdown of KM Oblit builds you see most of it in Obliterate, which supports what you’re saying until you take an honest look at the other abilities and how bad they are tuned. Which is why all the base line damage needs to come up.

We nearly cease to exist in pvp since 10.0.7, the following is from the arena forums. The 4 lowest cutoff specs (meaning worst) for dps are Fury, Outlaw, Unholy, Frost in that order. I’m guessing Frost came up b/c FDK+Devoker is sort of wild. That’s not because FDK, you could literally put unholy or blood in the same spot as FDK as long as you had Abom Limb, Blind, and Strang

CRIMSON LEGEND

Rating Specialization
1969 Guardian
2049 Vengeance
2089 Protection Warrior
2110 Blood
2481 Protection Paladin
2531 Brewmaster
2881 Fury
2956 Outlaw
3058 Holy Priest
3070 Unholy
3203 Frost Death Knight
3219 Devastation
3221 Restoration Druid
3238 Havoc
3267 Marksmanship
3309 Assassination
3310 Preservation
3311 Holy Paladin
3321 Fire
3324 Restoration Shaman
3332 Affliction
3341 Discipline
3360 Arms
3378 Arcane
3383 Shadow
3392 Subtlety
3403 Survival
3416 Mistweaver
3431 Feral
3462 Enhancement
3471 Frost Mage
3482 Windwalker
3495 Beast Mastery
3522 Destruction
3526 Elemental
3528 Retribution
3546 Demonology
3584 Balance

They didn’t list the cutoffs for actual 3’s which they should have done.

65

Whats so hard to follow?

You have a baseline, so say 10k, that gets lowered to probably around 7k due to target armor. If you have 60% mastery thats 10k + 6k x 2 so thats 32k and then another 15% from the targets debuff. Thats a 36,800. Thats 5.25x the 7k base damage that Obliterate does to the target.

I am not adding in any other modifiers. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying which I am putting pretty straight forward and the numbers I took straight from the game with making sure Bonegrinder, trinkets, FC, Unleashed Frenzy, Rune Mastery, Brittle or anything else is present on me or the target.

When I press Obliterate it does a set amount of damage which is between 5-6k. When I get a KM proc and press Obliterate that Obliterate goes to 31-32k damage. Thats 5.81x the 5-6k damage.

Why do you think people complain about baseline Obliterate damage being so low compared to KM procs?

Like Final Verdict? Take the top log on Terros,
Minimum Hit = 51k
Minimum Crit = 93k
Max Hit = 93k
Max Crit = 184k
Average Hit = 67k
Average Crit = 146k
61% crit rate

2h Obliteration Obliterate damage top log same boss.
Minimum Hit = 14k
Minimum Crit = 32k
Maximum Hit = 18k
Maximum Crit = 191k
Average Crit = 123k
99.73% crit rate

My Sim for DW Patchwerk 1 boss Obliterate damage
Minimum Hit = 5k+2.5k (7.5k)
Minimum Crit = 10k+5k (15k)
Maximum Hit = 11k+5.5k (16.5k)
Maximum Crit = 88k+44k (132k)
Average crit = 43k+21k (64k)

Obliterate sees a much greater difference between the peaks and valleys.

The peak for Final Verdict is roughly 3.5x its valley

Obliterate peak however is roughly 13.6x its peak. That is a lot to account for. But even without all the extra modifiers my Obliterate increases 5.9x when I get a KM proc.

Obliterate is never EVER going to be like Final Verdict or Mortal Strike with its current design and shouldnt be compared to other abilities. Its not a stable ability clearly.

66

its genuinely just the strength of the modifiers

Pillar functionally is better at 15s duration than 12, but its a 25% ramping strength mod now so blizzard felt it was necessary to nerf duration for power

Icecap was fine at 4s, But blizzard thought it was to strong to have PoF every 30s similar to arms warrior warbreaker

Shattering Blade was fine at 60%, but blizzard thought it was to weak so they buffed the talent by 40% rather than base froststrike by 40%

Theyll do literally everything in their power to make our abilities tuned so low, that we end up DEPENDING on the talents to deal reasonable damage as opposed to the abilities just dealing good damage and the talents making them slightly better as it should be

Our talents make or break us, other peoples talents are more like added bonus’

And also its so funny how blizzard also does everything they can to disallow synergistic gameplay in our talents, For the longest time obliteration and icecap perfectly synergized but we weren’t allowed to play that

Now we can, And we also have another synergistic talent that relies and rewards excellent uptime via Enduring Strength

In a perfect world, We could overlap enduring strength with PoF if we had really good uptime, But they straight up nearly made that impossible by gutting icecap and nerfing the duration of PoF

Its decisions like that i dont understand. I want them to stop making these things so powerful so we can actually see things like this more often.

Enduring strength could be 5% per stack, last slightly longer, PoF could be 10% ramping, last 15s, Bonegrinder could take 3 stacks and proc on the 4th instead of taking 5 and proccing on the 6th

Gathering storm could increase duration by 2s per rune, and contribute less % damage increase

These kinds of changes go a long way in making frost more fun to play, more interactive, More balanced numbers wise, more rewarding when you gain uptime which the entire design of the spec should encourage

5 Likes
67

This isn’t the top log for a ret paladin and I’m not sure how you got this. I clicked on the overall for mythic and went off that and what I got was this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4N6hMdwBcvat7myp#fight=18&type=damage-done&source=2&ability=383328

The minimum crit is 83k and the max is 220k. The average damage is 103k. BTW the only thing ahead of this ret is Unholy/Warlocks. As I wrote this another Ret beat the linked ret by a few hundred so not the best ret parse anymore

The minimum hit this player had was 48k, and the max crit was 220k.

The best frost parse for mythic is using Breath. Were you looking at heroic?

Also, Oblit is tuned at 87.6% of AP while Templars is 163%.

It’s not a mod issue boys, it’s tuning.

Oh just as an aside, that TV hit would be a hell of a lot bigger had the pally that I linked stacked mastery. If you had FDK mastery on that character the damage on TV would be a lot higher, probably 250-270k.

TV is doing 4.5x damage with a base mod that’s 2x of obliterates.

There goes the modifier argument.

68

It was the top log for Terros mythic. I found other 2h obliteration builds on terros thad maxxed at 250k obliterates.

I hate to say this but stop skimming my posts. I didnt say top log i said top obliteration log on terros mythic. Its even in the quote.

It also says something about the design that something that Obliterate which has been buffed from SL and has half the str going into its calculation that it is able to average higher and hit harder than Final verdict. Thats not a red flag to anyone? 87% str vs 160% strength hitting as hard or harder making up 50%+ the overall damage of 2h Obliteration builds.

I really dont understand what people want. Less modifiers but wants to keep the most egregious one, saying Frost is dogwater in all aspects when they are top 5 in the mythic raid overall. Its an echo chamber flying in the face of reality. Like another group out there. Flat earthers.

69

Base damage that isn’t trash. Really simple. Howling Blasts and Frost Strikes that hit hard. Frost has fewer regular buttons in the rotation, there isn’t room for a range of damage such as with Ret or War or Monk or Unholy etc.

We are giving feedback on PvP, as well as the state of regular damage for 2h which isn’t anywhere near top 5 in mythic. In pvp which is what the thread is about it’s nearly dead last for DPS.

It doesn’t move position place wise when you filter down. Ret/Arms are infinitely better in pvp because they have way more consistent damage, equal burst, far far far far better utility and far better defensives. The rep isn’t low b/c it’s not fun to play, it’s low because the spec is bad, relies on a cheesy comp that itself is bad esp going into S2 where casters are a heck of a lot stronger.

By the way the difference between 2h Frost on teros and Ret is staggering.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/31#boss=2639&class=Paladin&spec=Retribution

113k for ret

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/31#boss=2639&class=DeathKnight&spec=Frost

73k for 2h frost. This is why the claim that oblit is soooooooooooo powerful and mods are the issue is frankly not accurate. You have to make an assumption from the perspective of the dev team which, unless you’re a dev (wouldn’t shock me) is obtuse. Because other classes have similar numbers of mods, similar power in the mods, and do way more base damage which is why 2h is getting blown out by Ret.

Btw Breaths best there was 95k. So both are getting slammed by Ret.

It’s not though. Because Ret always has access to damage granted by mastery to TV and any ability that does holy damage.

I didn’t, 2h isn’t the top spec for frost. If the best spec for frost is getting blown out by ret because there isn’t enough idiot tier damage baked into breath what’s the 2h spec look like? Like this:

113 000-73 000= 40 000.

Please go on about how great and strong our mods are though. BTW this is what frost is ‘good for’ in pvp

A setup bot for Devoker. The irony of which (because FWF is OP if it hits hard) cannot in any way be understated.

1 Like
70

Then you cant have KM procs in the way they work now. Plain and simple.

No, not everyone is. Some people are, but most are just saying Frost DK needs a redesign because it sucks in all forms as a whole when it isnt. It just isnt. Those people are just bad and people need to start telling others that. Im not the best player and I never claim to be, but most people on these forums are very dense and cant see the writing on the wall all the while calling people autistic because they cant handle any form of conversation.

PvP is easy to see the writing on the wall as well. Get rid of Frostreaper. Seriously, nuke it from orbit or else Frost will always be a victim of Obliteration and having piss poor damage outside of the CD. Running next to no crit so no KM procs outside of Obliteration windows, that leads to no pressure which means you have to be on the defensive. If Obliterate was physical damage like it was before then they could just balance around the 2x from crits and armor. That would mean ay my ilvl I could see 20k Obliterates and 50k crits. What was wrong with that design? Nothing. What was the problem was the boring bland lazy mastery which is just strength 2.0.

There is a difference between dps output and Obliterate damage. I was talking about the Obliterate damage. It alone is keeping the spec where it is. They cant increase the baseline… they just cant. Its like a 20x increase with all the modifiers applied to it when KM procs within a Pillar window. You cant realistically do anything with that. What are they going to do make the baseline 50k? Obliterates then regular crit for 100k, and then when you get a KM proc with all the bells and whistles you do 1,000,000 damage? We see this type of jump continue no matter what level of play you see in PvE. My sims show a HUGE increase in Obliterate damage.

Lets just look at my numbers again, my sims are showing 7.5k normal Obliterate damage as DW. Max is 133.8k. Thats a 17x increase which is something you have to factor in for when you balance the ability. Or lets just take the 13.6x that Winningdk has on the top Obliteration Spec on Terros at 93k DPS in 10.0.7 instead of the 10.1 version.

If they doubled Obliterate damage that would put it at 28k For him which would mean 380k Obliterates with all the bells and whistles. 50k? 680k. It also depends on your mastery. Depending on the players mastery level like mine and we seen these same base numbers that 28k would turn into 476k. 50k would turn into 850k. Thats if this trend actually continues which at no matter what level of play I look at, this is the kind of thing you can expact. That is massive.

The data is there. Final Verdict does not see the same peak and valley swings that Obliterate has. There is no arguing against it. Thats what the data shows.

I didnt say it was. I said the top Obliteration log on Mythic Terros which would be the first Obliteration log you come across. Thats all that means. If you want to look at that the top Ret on mythic Terros was doing 112k dps in 10.0.7, the top Obliteration use on Mythic Terros was at 93k,

112000-93000 = 19000 That only roughly a 17% decrease in dps.

The other modifiers arent doing a crazy amount of increase. If we take Frost Strike from my sim the minimum is 9442+4550= 13,992 damage. A max hit would be 32484+16214 = 48,698. Most of that is probably due to my trinkets which one gives an absolute ton of Strength. Thats also without Shattering Blade or whatever that talent is that I never use.

There is only 1 upkeep modifier for Frost. Rune Mastery, Brittle Bonegrinder, Whelps are not contributing as much as some might suggest.

Nothing is going to change so long as Obliteration and KM design stay the way they are.

71

Yeah we can, if the dev team just buffs Oblit and Fs baseline. It’s a matter of coding nowhere near impossible.

See the thread title?

Again not the problem with the spec. This is a false equivalency Oblit isn’t anywhere near the hardest hitting ability on single semi use in PvP. Which means

We run next to no crit in pvp because you need far more haste and crit to smooth out km procs than we get in pvp gear. The pve build is 25% crit and haste everything else in mastery from what I understand. You can get something like 14% crit and 10% haste and have no mastery so everyone goes mastery. Because you don’t see a significant increase in km procs it’s not worth.

Neither howling nor Frost strike do good damage outside pillar either, but bumping frost damage still yields better damage than going some haste and some crit for no return.

So was I, the overall highlights how bad across the board the other damage globals are.

Phones dying I’ll add more when I’m at a pc

1 Like
72

Bro he’s a troll, he isn’t ever gonna admit he’s wrong because he’s delusional

73

It’s even funnier when you think about how not only has there been several suggestions to cut down on pointless situational buffs so that the baseline abilities can be buffed to increase our consistency, but even if the devs do that Frost still won’t be usable in PvP as not only will it be entirely pointless to go PoF as it will just get disarmed, but every time a melee class uses their go we’ll be required to either use every physical defensive option we have to stay alive (IBF, Lichborne, DS Spam and related PvP Talent, AMS and AMZ if there is also Magic Damage incoming) or stop everything we’re doing to CoI Spam and run away, either spending all of our resources or breaking the flow of gameplay because someone decided they wanted to use their class abilities. Frost has multiple problems hurting it in PvP, making our damage more consistent helps our PvE but doesn’t fix our PvP on its own. No matter whether or not Frostreaper, Obliteration, Breath, or Icecap get purged or changed, Frost won’t be able to feel right until we can get enough ways to defend ourselves and not use CoI (Or the Movement slow D&D) as a means to run away. Perhaps they can have their movement slows sacrificed for more passive defenses?

74

Is this why our class is garbage? We have a horrible person who never seems to admit they are, wrong can’t accept criticism, and can not look outside of a 1x1 tunnel vision to see anything. All I ever see is “FrOsTrEaPeR mUsT gO!!!111!1 FROST=DW and NEVER GETTING FROSTMOURNE”

Saying class can’t have oblit crits if baseline damage is upped Jesus. I would hope someone that spends that much time NOT playing the game and living on the forums does it for a reason(some kind of dev or influence) and not because they actually like it. That would be one of the most sad things if it’s the latter god.

Everyone else who is positive and actually likes and actually PLAYS please keep trying to fix and point out stuff that is not working and stuff that is because if this person is our dev it’s a wonder the class even exists.

Ps BoS is a ****ty play style it’s not fun

2 Likes
75

They cant actually do that though.

Yes, still doesnt change what I said.

Yes, it quite literally is. Its the hardest hitting ability for Frost and has the biggest damage swing I have seen ever in the game from baseline to peak. The ability has to be designed around that peak and trough. There is no way around it.

Everyone goes mastery and verse for the dps window to force KM procs. No matter how you look at it, its just highlighting another problem with KM and the immense power that it has within the spec.

You linked Ret dps in 10.1 and an Obliteration build in 10.1 to try to show the massive gulf in dps output. Why else would you have used the DPS figures and say Obliteration is 40k dps behind Ret (which its not).

And all I see is “you dont even play the game” which isnt a response to anything I have said. You guys are but a fraction of the playerbase yet act like the majority with absolutely nothing to actually contribute to any conversation. Oh and dont forget the tired and played out opinion of “BoS is bad and it sucks and” drivel. Other people find it fun, it functions, it has a stable damage output.

Are you sure you guys arent flat earthers? Your group comes up with the strangest conspiracy theories I have ever seen.

Who? Because all I see are complaints to be completely honest and have seen nothing but complaints since late BFA, and even more concerning Obliterate since SL beta when KM rank 2 was introduced after Blizzard has to address Obliterate making up 60-70% of the specs overall damage.

Seriously, the data couldnt be any more clear.

76

Delusional about damage figures? The only people who are delusional are the people that elect to ignore it despite the data being there. If you want Obliterate to be buffed then something has to be done either with a mastery nerf, or Frostreaper going the way of the Dodo bird.

You can say troll, im autistic or whatever other toxic nonsense that you want to, the fact is that I am seeing a 17x increase in baseline damage with all the bells and whistles, other people are seeing 13x, and there was even a thread on here with people trying to compete for the highest Obliterate crit where there was 300k Obliterates being shown.

You have to be delusional if you think they can just buff Obliterate to the point of these other abilities that people talk about like TV, FV, Mortal Strike. Its not going to happen due to what they did in SL. Its almost like you guys are just lonely and want to be a part of a group and just jump on the bandwagon without actually knowing what you are talking about. If playing the game translated to knowledge (it doesnt) then the words “troll or he wont admit he is wrong” should never come out of your mouth because the evidence should be out there to be shoved down my throat which you guys NEVER do. Its just name calling and nonsense.

So tell me, what should Obliterate be buffed to or by? 10%? 15%? 100%? Give some figures for crying out loud… you guys “play the game” right? You say that translates to knowledge so what should it be buffed to?

77

Show me evidence that this is impossible at code level or lose the argument.

No but you are one of the only people in here talking about pve and quite frankly trying to detail so hard that other people are perceiving it as a troll.

Not just talking about Obliterate being under par, so are howling and Frost strike for 2h.

Ah so you don’t understand how haste and crith thresholds affect the spec and why we choose stat as we do. Thanks for owning that even if it is indirectly.

The difference was between top parses and I was clear about that? Btw that top ret did beat the best 2h frost parse was indeed 40k. That’s what you get when you subtract 113k from 73k.

There isn’t a universe where a spec that performs like 2h in pvp should be under whatever oddball singularly crippling balance theory like you’ve laid out. Frost has no mortal strike, no disarm, no dispells no off healing and reasonable cc. Ultra low mobility.

Oblit should come up by 30% baseline at ap level.

Far more km procs outside obliteration for 2h.

Frost strike and howling blast each come up by 30-40%. Minimum.

Obliterate cleave tied to remorseless winter not death and decay

Introduction of a mortal strike or an offensive spammable low cost offensive dispell.

Fully functional death strike.

Permafrost becomes 70%of all damage done.

Removal of pvp nerfs for gloomward for both specs. AMS also raised to 100% of hp.

Pillar of frost now makes the duration of disarms half, if not preventing them outright.

2 Likes
78

It has nothing to do with coding, quit with this nonsense. They could buff Obliterate by 7000% if they wanted to shut you guys up.

Also, I have already explained why I am talking about pve, its the primary balancing force within WoW. I said this many comments ago but you are just deciding to ignore it for whatever reason.

So are you going to admit to being wrong about this design that people like me warned about in SL beta when this whole “2h should hit hard with obliterate” nonsense was going on. Thats all it had for it before and thats all it has going for it now. Instead of focusing on the spec and implementing 2h properly this is what people wanted, live with it.

Where are you getting this disingenuous argument from? Not to mention thats not at all what you are quoting actually means. I absolutely understand how KM works, crit gives the opportunity to trigger KM (something you dont get in pvp so you whine about baseline Obliterate while wanting to keep the insane end point) and haste increases attack speed which increases the amount of opportunities you have to proc it. 2h is a slow clunky piece of garbage when it comes to this, are you now admitting to that?

Duhhhh. But thats not at all what that quote is addressing. Its like you are trying to dance around everything.

This is not at all how you show how bad other globals are. Not to mention its not even an fair/accurate look at the differences because you purposfully waited until 10.1 to link the logs when less people are playing. The 10.0.7 log is 20k higher than the 10.1 2h Obliteration log. Or around 17% behind the very top ret player. But I dont know what you expect to happen, its clear people have no eye for design or balance on these forums.

Yes there is. This one. The one people like you asked for.

Nor should it.

didnt have one before

we arent healers

asphyxiate, chains, grips, silence

Death’s Advance with a built in freedom, Wraith Walk with build in root removal, DA with another movement speed, double charges. We arent ultra slow.

So increase it to 113%. What do you think that would do to pve? It would make it OP to the point that it would just get nerfed through another way like a mastery nerf.

So redesign KM… so KM is the problem here got it.

Frost Strike was already buffed and already doing almost as much damage as Obliterate for DW.

Obliterate shouldnt be cleaving period because thats another part of the equation that is holding Obliterate back.

Then you wont have the runes for Obliterate when KM procs.

It is fully functional, I dont think you actually mean functional though because it works as intended.

Overpowered unless you put a cap on it or else Frost would be immortal with 250k Obliterates which would make the shield 175k shield prior to gloomward.

At this point you just want Frost to be overpowered.

Again just more OP status requests and would be nerfed within 3 days of a patch going live.