Delver(dot)io. Fr fr.
(I don’t thibk a site actually exists but raider io seems to indicate m+ activity is as normal)
Force responsibility onto dps alone and watch their numbers vanish. All affixes personal and no one else can help dispel you. Interrupts locked to their target alone like Mistcaller. No AOE stops or interrupts on tanks/healers.
People play dps because they are lazy, not because it feels any different than a tank. The tank is just another dps who gets to hit first, but they also have to keep themselves alive. And that tiny thing is too much for a majority of players.
Of course the total number of players would go down if such responsibility was everyone’s job, so there needs to be a serious discussion about how much responsibility is acceptable for all roles, and how to reward individuals who are on top of their class kit. Players who can’t bother using their full toolset or doing grossly subpar damage should either get less rating, lower ilvl gear, or ineligible to have their key raised more than +1 at a time. Something actually tangible, and tell them where they screwed up.
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Talk about oversimplifications. DPS is usually more mechanically demanding than the tank. Very few people care if a tank deals less DPS than they should so long as they have a competent route, hold aggro, and don’t die. And while those all certainly have skill expression built into them, there is a different cadence to the abilities you are hitting in the moment. It’s just that screwups by the tank are far more noticeable than for the DPS.
This is an amazing goal, but would completely ruin the game if Blizzard attempted to implement it. This is why nearly every rating system for group based games measures the group’s effectiveness, not the individual. There are too many factors that can lead to how well an individual can perform related to group play and strategy to result in a system that adequately measures this. Yeah, the extreme cases I’m sure you could bring up could be handled, but at some point a threshold would have to be picked for where extreme end and the edge of “stuff happens” begins, that threshold would be an immense source of controversy, and it would make the system completely unintelligible to engage with as a player.
And that’s even before we even consider the ways players would invariably be able to abuse the system to unfairly improve their rewards or troll to inhibit their teammates’ rewards.
I disagree with this. Tanks have to deal with more mechanics because they have to deal with general mechanics in addition to tank ones. They also have to have a good understanding of DPS mechanics to position or time correctly to make it easier on everyone else.
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I worded this poorly. What I was trying to refer to was on the rotation side of things and not encounter. Tanks have fewer survival buttons than DPS have damage buttons, with usually simpler rotations for what survival button to use in each circumstance. No tank has a 15 step opener priority to execute for max performance.
Then on the damage side, few people care how much damage a tank does so long as they hold aggro. So while there can be some complications for max damage, you aren’t primarily measured by that for the level nearly everyone plays at.
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Primadonna tanks can take a hike. They’re less interested in completing the dungeon as opposed to controlling people.
Would be like if dps or healers went on strike because pulls are not the right size. And refuse to do anything else because of it.
Which you don’t hear NEARLY as much about.
Tank is not the main player in a group.
This isnt necessarily true though. As a tank, as with DPS, you have to know which pulls are coming and which CDs are going to be needed for those pulls. You dont just fire off CDs because theyre avaliable.
Also
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I think what he’s saying is that tanks have fewer Damage buttons to manage and the rotation isn’t complicated. I don’t know other tanks as well, but I can completely butcher my rotation and get ~80% (guestimating) of my potential output. They made it this way so that we can focus on our defensives and execute tanking responsibilities.
If a DPS player completely messes up their rotation and CDs their DPS would go from 2 mil to 1.3 mil overall.
Prot Paladin is generally agreed upon to have an easy bar to entry with a steep learning curve and skill ceiling, but we still only have 5 DPS buttons.
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Trade off though.
People dont typically care about tank dps so long as they maintain aggro; likewise people dont really care about dps survival so long as they’re not actually dying.
But yeah, trying to maintain a full dps rotation while getting multiple stops, paying attention to pull sizes, mob positioning, knowing the damage profile of pulls and what/where the threats are. That would be a nightmare
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Don’t be mean to tanks, dont say go faster and then get mad when they go too fast for you to handle. Dont tell them how to play. Don’t tell them how to spec. Don’t tell them to change their rotation and yes, I have witness all of that in many dungeons in the recent past when I do play with some of my friends.
Its ok they are nerfing Warrior tanks rather than bringing the leather using tanks up to par with warrior, DK and Paladin.
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Yes that is what I was trying to say, and you said it far better.
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Yes, my point was in response to the person who claimed people playing DPS were simply too lazy to tank. What I was trying to convey is that DPS rotations demand more of the player for max output, and output is what you will be measured by. Whereas with a tank, until you get to the absolute highest levels, no one will care how much damage you deal so long as you have a good route, hold aggro, and don’t die. Most tanks have fewer buttons to manage for both defense and offense, but that trade off like you said is the need to juggle both and many encounter-specific mechanics for tanks as well.
I still think DPS is easier. Even as DPS im really just focusing on 5-6 buttons. Trade out an ability here or there for AoE or ST and push big CD on big pull.
Its a bit of an over simplification, just like saying tanks only have 5 buttons and dont care about their dps.
DPS messing up their CD usage, not the end of the world. Tank messing up theirs can very well mean a wipe.
Its really hard to justify though thinking about it. Im not the greatest player but ive enough game knowledge and situational awareness that as a DPS, even on my BM hunter, im soothing, interrupting, aoe stop, aoe interrupt, hard CC, priotity targetting.
A well played DPS has just as much going on as a well played tank a well played healer
Bad tank makes DPS and healers have to do more
Bad DPS stresses the healer
Bad healer stresses the tank
Good group all around makes you wonder if the game is actually as hard as youve been experiencing
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Sure, DPS probably is easier.
But the message I initially responded to was that DPS players were simply players who were to lazy to tank. When in reality no role can really perform to their capabilities if played lazily.
Wellll…its like 20:1 DPS:tank/healers.
If were gonna find someone to lazy to do another role, im sure we can guess which pool they’re going to come from lol
And historically the ones who fail to use the tools available to them do tend to be majorly be dps
Sure, but that’s just the law of averages there. The fact that more total DPS players are lazy doesn’t mean the role naturally affects lazy players. There probably is a survivorship bias since it’s easier for a DPS to slack in group content due to there being more of them in a raid and dungeon (so more lazy DPS will stick around for a while compared with tanks/healers). But I still don’t think it’s fair to say any DPS that weren’t lazy would be tanking instead.
Oh no i agree with you 100%
And if we wanted to deep dive into it, i bet we’d find a higher ratio of “lazy peons” populating the dps demographic over all the other ones.
So its not without merit, but its hyperbolic at the same time
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GOOD dps aren’t lazy of course, they will do their thing and also handle mechanics and that’s the most difficult role in the game when they do.
That is never required outside of top keys and PVP. They can have zero situational awareness, take utility talents they never cast, and coast along to KSH no prob. Someone else can wipe up their boom-booms for them, and typically DO for the sake of getting the key done. It’s constantly reinforced that dps never have to touch their utility, never look at friendly healthbars, never pay attention to enemy buffs, and tunnelvision 24/7.
DPS attracts the lazy because they can always get away with it.
Unless there’s a fundamental change to address that then there will remain a glut of terrible dps because nothing in the game gives them any incentive to do better.
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Been saying this for a while. Challenge people where they live. The game is a hell of a lot more fun that way.
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