The Survival Hunter identity crisis or "wait, why aren't we Commandos?"

So the other day I was clearing the “We Send Only You” WQ for the 3rd time. I was destroying a bone pillar. On my Arms hero she winds up with a giant overhead cut. On my Rett pally she conjures several Righteous Blades.

As SV I see my hero set a charge, and blow that sucker to bits. And thus it hit me: why aren’t SV Hunters Commandos?

SV has had an identity problem pretty much since inception. Were we raid? PvP? What did "Survival? mean? Everyone tries to survive, duh. MM = pew pew. BM = big floof. SV = ? The WoD switch to SV as a melee spec was a good call. SV tried to be Max Traps and several iterations failed and not at least because you couldn’t set traps in combat for the longest while. So we went melee and at least we had a gimmick.

But we had no identity. Then I played an Outlaw Rogue because, like “Surviving” being specialized at “Combat” made zero sense. Everyone does that; there is no Combat Priest spec because all specs for everyone everwhere are bloody Combat specs. And yet eventually Combat evolved into Outlaw (Subtlety differentiated into Shadow Magic Rogue), gained some properly piractical cursed cutlasses, stuck a gun in it’s shorts, and found it’s identity.

Well, give our propensity for bombs -flinging and setting-, our option to spec into an actual functional Stealth talent, our capacity to ambush via harpoon, that we attack in coordination with our pets and though I was underwhelmed at first the “throw tar and light it” Legendary is exactly the kind of thematic ingenuity that goes well with pocket poison crossbow. I think Survival could make sense as the “we pop out of bushes and murder fools” Spec Ops Hunter.

Which means jettisoning Rexxar.

Look I’m not going to pretend I care about Rexxar either way. He’s fine, but Rexxar’s not a useful depiction of a Survival Hunter. He has two pets out. He likes ranged even if to throw hatchets instead of using a gun or a bow. That he’s burl as hell and disdains shirts doesn’t make him a SV Hunter it makes him a Beast Master who’s really picky about his transmogs. Yes, Orcs get specifically pet boosting Racials. That makes them better conceptually as BM’s.

(This is rather like the Warrior iconics and Orcs problem: it’s a bit of legacy conceptualization that has aged poorly. Thanks to Grom, Garrosh, and Samuro the iconic Arms Warrior is Orcish. So is the iconic Fury Warrior image of the Orc Berzerker. If any of them used a shield they could sweep the category. See also: Gul’dan and how there’s no other Warlock who’s even as remotely important.)

The iconic Survival Hunter, the Commando, should be a Troll. I’m sure there’s a few Shadow Hunter types around who’d qualify. Trolls are up there with Tauren and Night Elves for nature affinity. Unlike Tauren they can be sneaky without shapeshifting. They live in the harshest places with the least distance between them and the wild. Personally I like the Rengari and would be fine with a Draenei getting the job, but Trolls deserve it more.

We need a new identity. I think we’d suffer fewer spastic mechanical reconceptualizations if what we did had a specific flavor and we could actually be assigned something that we do in lore. Yes, Huln Highmountain was a thing and was even a cool thing. Huln’s dead and his artifact is bank clutter. If we have to be dragged through revision after revision because it’s not clear what makes us who we are we should switch from “who we are is what we do” (ie A Hunter Who Survives) to “what we do is who we are” (ie throw bombs, set fires, shoot poison darts, stealth if we want and generally make mayhem).

And we are Commandos.

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You lost me. I didn’t bother reading beyond this point.

SV has had an identity problem since the switch to melee, which was Legion BTW and not WoD. It’s the melee switch that caused this. As a ranged spec it actually had a solid identity as the Hunter that focused on exotic munitions and utility, and as such it appealed to a wide audience. It certainly did not “fail” and it was not just “the trap spec”. Trapping in combat came as early as patch 2.0 and it was never a central part of the spec to begin with but rather just one of the focus areas. It sounds like you don’t have a good grasp of the history of the class if this is your understanding of Survival before Legion.

Being the melee Hunter spec is not a gimmick; its a weakness. The class starts off using a ranged weapon and builds an identity around that, but melee Survival demands you abandon it… just to feel different? That’s exceptionally unhealthy class design and it goes against the core function and purpose of a specialisation in the first place.

If people want to fix Survival’s identity and make it a desirable and appealing spec they should be talking about restoring the pre-Legion Survival because that iteration was proven to work. However since you’re a Warrior I can understand why you would be interested in keeping Survival melee…

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You must live in a sad, angry world. I am very sorry you feel that way. I am sorry you think my avatar is what tells you what matters to me and not that I’ve been also been playing Survival since TBC or that I give even the beginnings of a care about some ranged versus melee nontroversy nevermind would be so pathetic as to bend my arguments around some “game” of trying to shift a spec for the purposes of “winning” said nontroversy.

There’s self-abasement and wretched self-degradation, and then there’s the very idea of that. Wow.

Yes actually I remember when Survival’s trick was getting bonus trap damage if the trap armed outside of combat. That was bad. That was why it went away. If only for the hell of it I’ve been SV because obviously MM and BM were more coherent. But you don’t care about that, so no worries. Next!

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Honestly, from wrath forward I really don’t believe this was the case. It was incredibly similar to an arcane archer in that it infused magic into its shots to destroy their enemies. Its damage type (magic) and profile (dots through those magic shots) really emphasized that.

It should have been a 4th spec. It was by far the most controversial and worst choice they could have gone with. And that’s not meant to rag on melee SV fans or anything like that. I totally think there’s room in the class for the melee hunter flavor and identity. I think it coming at the cost of one of our other specs was a huge mistake though.

Ironically, the swap to melee I think has caused more identity issues for the spec and the class as a whole. They tried to force old SV into MM and that didn’t work, and SV takes quite a bit of BM’s themes and even iconic abilities (spirit bond) that they had since classic.

More to the topic of what to do with SV going forward. I think there still needs to be important interactions between the pet and the hunter (otherwise, what does it really have that still fits the hunter identity? Just traps?) However, I think the bombs, or unique gadgets could be a focus for the spec. Whether that fits your idea of a commando, that’s up to you.

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Great post. I like the commando idea. As long as I get to stay melee :]

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Doubt it.

The most replied-to thread in all the class forums is a thread about making Survival ranged again. It’s a major controversy whether you like it or not.

It’s actually for the purposes of making Survival a good spec again. The difference between you and me is I correctly recognise that it’s the melee switch that doomed Survival to irrelevance and obscurity so the best way to make Survival good again is to bring back ranged Survival.

This was literally a melee Survival thing: Waylay was added during Legion because Blizzard fooled themselves into thinking the reason Survival had so spectacularly faceplanted by that point in the expansion was because it didn’t involve traps enough. Word of advice: if you’re going to target a silly flavour mechanic and use it as an example of why a particular spec iteration was thrown out, make sure it was actually part of that iteration. Try not to get confused here

As for ranged Survival; its trapper focus was in the form of shortened cooldowns, more damage, a built-in root effect, and Lock and Load proccing off trap activation. That made a lot more sense because ranged Survival was designed by people far more competent than the people behind melee Survival.

Survival was no less coherent than BM or MM. I have zero reason to believe you have any real grasp on Survival’s history given your confusion about Waylay.

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Threads like this make me physically ill

You have to remember they also just stated that MSV started during WoD. Clearly they have a short memory and a fantastic imagination.

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is this a fanfic?

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I know this is an extremely popular fantasy, but it doesnt scream hunter to me. That fantasy would fit better in a ranged weapon hero clas IMO.

Why though? If hunter is supposed to be like the archetypical ranger (a move which Blizz has seemingly confirmed with MSV) then having an option to use magic in your shots makes a ton of sense, no?

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Arcane archer may have originated in some fantasies as a ranger archetype, usually justified by a connection to inherently magical eldritch beings (read elves), but it has evolved to have little to do with rangering and more to do with combining arcane and martial proficiencies.

While the ranger fantasy combines rogue-like traits, martial skill and a touch of druidic magic or all around wilderness/adventuring expertise, the arcane archer combines a wizard and an archer (who need only be a fighter with a bow).

WoW doubles down on the wilderness aspects of ranger with the hunter class. An animal companion being a hallmark of the class, camouflage as opposed to just stealth, trapping, calling the class hunter instead of just archer or ranger.

There are a number of warcraft hero NPCs who use archery, and particularly magically enhanced archery, that we once would have considered hunters, and I think they once fit well when we used mana. But the hunter class has moved away from magic (good or bad) and that really opens the door for a hero class that adds to the lack of ranged weapon specs and satisfies arcane archer fantasy.

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I credit both to the pleasure I take in life.

Personally I’d like survival a lot more if we had the option to dual wield swords like so many other rangers (drizzt, legolas, pick a game with rangers they often have dual wield options).

Harpoon is awesome but it’s really lacking compared to grappling hook which doesn’t need a target. Some strong leech abilities / invulns, something similar to crimson vial or DRs would also go a long way to really making it feel “tougher” and survivalist.

Aspect of the eagle should have a much shorter cooldown so you could weave in and out of melee and not just save it for uptime problems.

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Perhaps, but I don’t believe we need a hero class to fulfill what the hunter had already satisfied, you know?

I’d also be skeptical of them adding one that would actually fulfill that niche. So far all of the hero classes that have been added have been meant to fulfill not only a gameplay niche, but a story one as well.

We saw it with deathknights leaving Arthas, Monks from the wandering isle, and demom hunters who followed Illidan. All of them have some sort of story purpose. I assume if they add another class, it’ll have to do the same.

To be clear, I’m not saying that’s impossible, but I think it’s unlikely for a class that will also fill the shoes of the arcane archer if that makes sense. Especially since Blizz apparently thought MM and SV were too similar and there was no way to differentiate them beyond melee lol.

It seems like an unlikely move, and one that would leave people abandoning characters they may have grown attached to in the hunter class to get a theme we already had. It could work, but it’s not ideal and if I’m going to advocate for an idea that I think is unlikely to happen, I’ll argue for the one that I think makes the most sense (4th spec).

If I had to be honest, the only spec that I think really fits the nature themes any more is BM. MM prefers not to even use their pet also has explosive shot, the only thing really going for them is serpent sting. SV is a little bit better in that department thanks to the pet, though they are also using a lot of tools like bombs and harpoon not sure fit well with the theme.

I guess to me, I’d have to rank the hunter class between major and minor themes, since there’s a lot going on there.

The biggest being Ranged, Traps, and Pets. Those are the core pillars to the class. I’d list the nature themes along with melee (originally, though obviously a core pillar for current SV) to be lesser themes. As while they were important, I don’t believe they were the main draw to the class for most players.

Regardless with all of that being said, I think bringing back something akin to the arcane archer or munitions expert, or whatever we really want to call old SV, back is important. Preferably, I think a 4th spec makes the most sense. I could live if it was in a hero class if it made sense of course too, just not exactly ideal and feels a bit arbitrary to me. I think before Legion we really were the ranged weapon class already. I know you feel a bit differently from prior posts about weapons so I understand if we don’t agree there.

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You mistake my nonexistent dislike for my actual disinterest. I like Survival because it is interesting, not because I’m over concerned with it’s efficiency. You can believe that if you’re angry enough SV will be the meta if you want, but that race is never won for long.

I do deeply regret the cascade of despair, disgust and cynicism I’ve triggered by suggestion that classes have identities and that these should influence gameplay versus …whatever hateful cesspit of holdouts and die-hards I’m actually addressing. I could say more, or I could leave you to be upset about what I don’t remember about Waylay. I suspect the latter will remain true regardless of my choices about the former.

(In retrospect this tar well of rage I’ve ignited does make sense if you believe threads like this are blows against a righteous crusade to turn time back to when Survival was generic. Clearly I must stopped.)

The difference between us is that if Survival stays melee I’ll be happy and you’ll stay miserable versus if it goes ranged again you might be happy but I’ll still be fine. So, yeah. Good luck with that war. Three expansions in and I’m sure victory has to seem like it’s right around the corner.

Have a nice day. Or, try to.

Oh you didn’t mention that your most replied to threat evaaaar had also gone a year since anyone said anything in it. Bit of an oversight. I was going to ask that if SV has a .3% player rate a year ago what it’s numbers were like at it’s peak. Because I bet they were never actually good, or at least never more popular than MM/BM.
Probably because the question “What is Survival about” is not well answered by “a fistful of mechanics oriented around the vague theme of Not Being MM/BM.”

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I have no intentions to speak down on anyone’s desire for magic-based archery.

I think that it is however important to keep in mind that it was never intended for this class to have Mana as a resource. Nor for us to be primarily a magic-based class, nor having it as a side-focus.

It was mentioned in the live panels in 2005 how they had the goal of designing the class with Focus as a resource from the get-go. They just did not have the time to get it to a decent enough working state for it to be ready for launch. It was more or less a band-aid fix, last minute, giving us Mana as a resource.

Having said this, it’s ofc okay if the class do make use of certain magic-infused shots, although based on intent, it’s more fitting when it’s considered that Hunters hire magicians to do the infusions or alternatively, buy already infused ammunition/arrows.

I do very much appreciate the desire for a magic-based archer. I just don’t think that the Hunter class fits that theme very well, based on historical design and intent of such, along with ongoing development.

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So that inspires me to ask: besides cosmetics (more laser arrows effects etc), what would actually be different about an Arcane Archer that Marksman doesn’t do? Different AoE templates? More non-physical damage? Cloth armor? A mana bar? I wonder if what’s being asked for is a case of “we want something different but don’t know what that is.”

You are right. We probably missed that shot when they went with demon hunter as an elf only class instead of ranger. I mean, we have examples of both non-elf demon hunters and rangers, but for rangers thats definitely the exception.

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That part is easy(IMO)

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/suggestions-updated-pre-legion-survival-4th-spec/47579


It’s ofc not the only way to design such a playstyle/theme. Lazyguide recently came up with his/her own concept as well, which is quite different from how I’ve done it.

Both are more or less based on what was Survival prior to Legion though.

The problem with WoW is that it frankly does quite an awful job of mechanically distinguishing between what is magical, and what is non-physical damage.

What does this mean?

Take Explosive Shot as an example, which was the signature ability of the old Survival. Explosive Shot dealt Fire damage to the affected target, but it wasn’t themed around doing magical damage. It was created with the idea of literally attaching explosives to your arrows or insert them into ammo, to then fire at the target.

Yet the game mechanically treated it as magical because it couldn’t distinguish between that and actual magic.

Fire conjured by a Mage is not at all the same thing as Fire which is created from an explosive.

Another example would be Serpent Sting which has always dealt Nature damage. Nature damage is magical by design, but Serpent Sting(all Hunter stings) are themed around using animal venom which has been extracted and reapplied to your arrows/ammo.

@Lazyguide Sorry btw mate, I haven’t forgotten your concept, I meant to get into it again the other day but then I happened to stumble over some more comments regarding BM and it’s issues and…just like that…my mind was occupied by what could be done there(as you’ve probably seen with the concept I posted the other day) :upside_down_face:

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