The State of Monk

Classes Monk
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Before we all start MONK IS FINE or MONK IS BAD-ing at each other, let’s just talk about the state of monk. Understandably, it is a less popular spec than other classes in the current meta, yet many die-hards of the class say that it’s fine. Without getting out the power point presentation, we can discuss some things that are known.

Brewmaster: This is currently the spec with the most key binds of any spec in the game. I play every class and while I don’t raid on every class, I do have them all levelled ((except warlock) thanks for freeing us from alt jail blizz <3). Button bloat is a real thing and while I don’t want to do to brewmaster what happened to prot warrior in terms of simplification, I do believe there are simply too many buttons to press. Is the spec fun? Yes, but that is subjective and not fact. To me it is. Is it viable in high keys and end game raids? Yes I believe so completely. Is it clunky? Certainly. I think this is the closest thing to a healthy spec for monks of the three, though it does happen to be the hardest tank in the game imho and I do think it could stand to see an update.

Windwalker: The most popular of the monk specs. There are a ton of people that will play windwalker no matter what. It is a fun spec (again, subjective) in both PVP and PVE that has a high mastery ceiling, with a relatively accessible barrier of entry. A good and healthy spec for rookies and experts alike. How is it doing? Currently, SE&F WW is DEAD LAST in terms of single target DPS. While in every list, there will be a best and a worst, I think we can agree that WW is underperforming compared to the other dps in raid specifically. In keys it is perfectly fine. It can handle Afflicted, Incorporeal and has a wonderfully mobile AoE profile. How do we correct the ST issue? Well I looked through all the removed Monk abilities and to be honest with you… there isn’t one in the previous version of the spec that fix it. Do we buff RSK to the moon? Do we just up and make a new capstone ability for WW? I’m not sure, but it is certainly lacking in the ST department, despite how fun it is. Is it viable? I could see it being turned away… unless you’re in a pedestrian CE guild and it is played perfectly while also being the only option as a guild for Mystic Touch.

Mistweaver: Now here’s where I am going to make friends and make even more enemies. I am (formerly) a MW main that is moving onto Windwalker and likely rerolling into one of the golden child classes as told by blizzard. Priest? 2-3 reworks. Paladin 69 reworks (nice) - Druid? 2-3 reworks. I mean honestly, I keep waiting for mistweaver changes and all I saw at the end of season 1 when I was still maining MW were nerfs. That’s so depressing. Ancient teachings has been converted into a mindless triage ability and has sucked the fun out of fistweaving. Ok, ok, before you send me to the gulag, what about people who don’t like fistweaving anyways? Well, you see casting MW is on the rise compared to season 1. That’s true. Does that mean it’s thriving? Most certainly not! Let’s keep this brief before I lose your attention. What is Mistweaver’s job? It’s not external utility I will tell you that. It is 2 fold. Healing and Damage. That’s it. It is a throughput class from top to bottom. I’m seeing MW’s have half or less the damage of resto druids and be pulling twice the parse to three times the parse. I’m seeing MWs with the least healing in raids, below green and grey parsing allies hit blue and purple parses. So I ask again, what is Mistweaver’s job? If the spec is “fine” then bring the other healers down to MWs level. If it’s not, bring MW up to the other healer’s level. That’s it. Is it viable? We saw it in Echo when they lost to TL in RWF, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t an interesting spec.

Whew! Ok. If you’ve made it this far, thanks for reading! I want to say that I genuinely love playing Monk and Fistweaving is my single favorite play pattern in the entire game and I’m sad it’s down bad atm. Can the worst specs in the game clear content? Yes! Yes they can! That’s cool blizzard thank you! Would other classes like to be nerfed to Monk’s level? Probably not! I’ll be windwalking in my dreams towards the promised land of a Monk rework by 10.1.5.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. As always, I love you fellow monks. You are all the absolute cutest gamers. Peace <3

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I don’t necessarily disagree with the perceived problems with windwalker, despite being one of those die-hards that keep saying it’s fine. However, I don’t think it is a problem that should be continuously addressed by small buffs and should instead be solved through long-term scaling fixes.

Also, it’s a a strange example to be using SEF ww as the lowest ST spec. Like yeah that’s probably correct since it’s not a good talent build for ww on ST. Surely there are no destro warlocks complaining that their rain of fire build is bad ST, or mm hunters with their multishot build.

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True! I’ll follow up by saying WW with serenity OR se&f (I don’t think serenity is fun to use personally in a high pressure situation) is bottom 3 dps in ST with only BM hunter sandwiched between :slight_smile:

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Brewmaster and Mistweaver are the best they ever felt.

Brew is close to the old MoP Guard version, and with Charred Passions, Blackout Combo, and Counter attack, I have a deep and rewarding rotation where all that “bloat” actually feels good to press. It’s one of the few times having more buttons doesn’t actually hurt the play style (and that’s most likely since it’s a tank and not damage).

Windwalker? Feels the same as it did in Legion. Either you love it or you hate it. There is great potential for it with Serenity, which actually feels great to use for the window, but as long as it clings to burst gimmicks from Touch of Death (notably FFG) and Teachings of the Monastery off of Skyreach, the sustained damage potential will always be trivially cascaded from its absurd burst.

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In an effort to avoid as much “feely-craft” as possible, I personally believe Legion and Shadowlands MW felt miles better than it does currently. For the Casting and Fistweaving styles respectively. In addition It is worth noting that a spec dedicated to HPS and DPS is 5th and slowly becoming 6th of 7th among healers for damage. Paladin and Shaman currently out damage you and Druid is starting to on average pass MWs due to the play pattern of CF/RM. PI from priest provides more damage than MW did in season 1 with fistweaving and even holy priest’s pitiful damage is subsidized by that. So that leaves what, Evoker?

Weirdchamp to say that a DPS healer is 2nd to last in DPS :\

Edit: As a follow up none of the monk specs rival the power of MoP monk. Not even Brew lol.

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I wouldn’t avoid feeling. This is an entertainment product and frankly how you feel playing matters more than any amount of rational argument. It should feel fun. Because if it doesn’t, you’ll go find more fun elsewhere.

I don’t speak much to MW because it’s what I’ve experienced the least of, though so far every Monk healer I’ve had for dungeons has been absolute fire. The fact there is a casting option and a melee healing option via fist weaving is fantastic. 9.0 mistweaving wasn’t too fantastic, since a lot of the performance was locked behind the manifold interactions (have EF up to double GoMs, extend with RM, keep ReMs rolling, use tear to cleave EMs, etc), but it was comfortable enough for high throughput (though that spread throughput wasn’t necessarily saving anyone).

After Discipline was moved more towards atonement based healing, their damage potential was drawn down substantially. For quite some time (especially if you remember Chakras for Holy), Holy Priest was actually doing considerably more damage than its ‘DPS healer’ variant. I’m not shocked to see the same thing done to MW damage, though am equally disappointed. It would be nice to feel like there is some damage viability, though the kit isn’t in a near zero scenario either.

MoP truly was a different time. That’s why I am careful to say Close. Though frankly, I don’t think Blizzard will ever let us or BDK solo current tier heroic raid bosses ever again. Paladin on the other hand?

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bless you thank you. that’s what i’m saying. paladin soloing current content is wild. better rework it and buff it again in 10.1.5. monk though? you ask peak of serenity and they will explain why it’s fine and you should meditate on that.

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There is also a mistweaver in number one spot on Echo and Magmaroth, and mistweavers in the top 20 on most fights while being in top 100 on every fight in Aberrus.

The problem with mistweaver isn’t necessarily being weak, it’s that the skill curve is absolutely massive.

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Brew mistake was rsk from the class tree tbh. In SL it was fine without it

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I agree, throwing rsk into brewmasters rotation just felt awkward to me. Not a fan of the covenant abilities either.

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I drop sexy and juicy heals, only way my heals mean nothing is if you are squishy AF in PvP, MY MASTERY IS AT LIKE 96% everything i got is in the double digits of %. only problem i have is with other players that are weak and worthless. hitting other people like they got a wet noodle in their hand
edit: Also my mog is pure Drip, looking like im from the 1300’s with the black death running around

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The new build is only working because of our tier sets / trinkets. This is probably the only season CF will work unless there are mana changes. Which I think there should be mana changes for CF for people who like this build. Probably something like vivify mana cost is reduced by 50% when channeling soothing mist.

Also, MW isn’t looking so hot in raid because its a harder playstyle to get going in raid. Most MW’s will probably never get this build going to its full potential. It takes a high CPM / knowledge of the fight amoung other things. Also helps to have innervate still.

I still don’t like CF and think its bad game design. And we are still considered a fistweaver when doing this build.

edit:

Also kind of odd how dead of a stat mastery is with the CF build in raid.

Also! I think we’re about to have our Ancient Teachings playstyle taken by Hpally.

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Ww monks biggest problem is scaling and redundant/useless talent points, not ST damage specifically. Scaling can be resolved through rework of the talent trees. Wwmonks damage is too heavily reliant on damage proc trinkets and items with special damage effects. That is why we still run the annulet and diurna ring.

I would say second major problem is probably certain abilities not matching class fantasy, looking at you fls.

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I miss my monk the healing while moving the chi roll that heals the uplift that nice to press I’m glad we stop using chi to cast spells I miss my green dragon statue auto healing people that was low on health

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RSK can provide a nice filler for big dam and snap aggro. Also, it’s much much much more rewarding when you get the set bonus. With Blackout Combo, you may have a couple Elusive Brawler stacks but no Counter Attack following a Blackout Kick. You can fill with RSK and if you dodge get a follow-up tiger palm for another 30k. It’s really great burst damage and helps fill out the play style to more than just rotating around ISB… Bears are currently suffering the opposite problem, where Thorns of Iron are steady, stable throughput but you don’t feel it since it’s just pressing your defensive. Bear at least getting a bone with not losing Maul damage when picking Raze, so they’ll actually be brought in line with how RSK feels to press (which imho is good, as long as you’re not sacrificing higher priority necessary survival GCD).

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Our talent trees are wack.

[Album] imgur.com

While it may play more or less the same, WW feels significantly weaker. Even our burst feels weaker than it has before.

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I’d agree. The switch from essentially sustain healing with AT to now 1 min burst windows is doing short circuit in my brain. AT is still viable yes, but for a spec that barely uses Vivify the T4 set feels wasted. So we either switch to potentially increase healing output while suffering the mastery curve or we stay AT and fall behind the other healing classes who’s tier sets are complimentary to their playstyles already.

I still do really do love MW, and I’m having the most fun I ever had this time around since Legion, but it’s rather frustrating that there’s always something holding us back a lil.

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This is probably the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard, is this an M+ thing? Vivify is a pretty bread and butter spell.

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We use it in M+ but it’s not nearly as much as raid, the 4pc is still very good

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Sorry – didn’t look at relative power. Only look at how the rotation feels when you press your buttons. One SotWL does pretty great damage (thought it’s more single-target oriented now) and FoF and RSK also swapped places. When I TP with Skyreach and RSK for an instant kill on trash mobs, it’s hard to say what it feels more like. In legion, I didn’t watch the meter outside of praying that it ended on a Gale Burst detonation. Full quote, “Either you love it or you hate it.” No in between.

I do think WW feels a lot squishier now but I roll with WM on and use Turbo Fists, so there’s really no pain when I have 100% parry in AoE. The only issue is if the first mob doesn’t die in the first FoF, then its awkward kiting for resets. I don’t play WW in M+ currently because it’s all built around FFG and awkward cleave, with relatively low AoE burst and poor ST (zero place to excel).

FWIW, the rotation didn’t really feel great in Legion. Though yeah, tuning seems to be a bigger problem with all the wombo combo multipliers cooked into class design.