Well thats what diablo is… seems to be more suited for you. Other than the top down perspective. Same dungeons over and over just harder mobs … yup diablo
Okay, but I’m not misdiagnosing anything. I didn’t say hard dungeons were why people left. I just said people didn’t like hard dungeons so they stopped making them so difficult. That’s all.
I’m not against the badge system idea, but the idea that BC dungeons were really tough is kind of weak. Everyone said the same thing about classic dungeons, but have you been on classic? Every dungeon run is just “AOE it down”. People said CC would be needed, but it’s not. It never was.
If (or when) they release classic TBC, it will be no different there too.
If our very experienced, very modern gaming abilities had dungeons like Shadowlabs now, we’d stomp it and say we’re bored the day after release.
Having consistent packs of 4-6 mobs where you need to CC 1-2 each pack isn’t really any different. It becomes just as mind-numbing.
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Why do people think mind-numbing CC is difficult?
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It is not nostalgia goggles to preface any of the people that will default to this as a response. Burning Crusade had the literal best dungeons in any expansion ever. A large variety (possibly the most options compared to any xpac?), actual difficult heroic dungeons that required thought / cc / gear-checks (shadowlabs as prime example), and a badge system from killing the final boss to gain deterministic epic items.
First off- Cata had better dungeons, and I will knife fight you on this topic. BC wasn’t bad, but I think it was a lot simpler in comparison to Cata, though largely due to the developmental stage of the game at the time. I suppose that comming of WotLK dungeons was a big change though too.
That being said it would be cool to have more challenging dungeons and that again, and I do miss the badge system since at least I was always moving toward some kind of loot.
EDIT: In hindsight BC dungeons were ‘hard’ because bc balance was garbage. Kinda like vanilla.
I couldnt get into many TBC dungeons as a dps shaman.
“tank/healer lfg dps. Mage, hunter, rogue only”.
They weren’t difficult. They were mindless in their trash clearing. Hard CC isn’t a difficulty setting. Its a pre-pull chore that only some classes can participate in, so you stack those classes to lower the difficulty of the dungeon.
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This one line right here says your point of view isn’t up for debate. You’ve already decided that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Another pointless thread just looking for folks to echo chamber their opinion.
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A good chunk of these threads are returning folks looking to play the new expansion. They’re the Easter crowd, they show up once a year and we get to hear their opinions on everything.
This week would have been the launch, so it’s no shock many of the short term folks are running around making noise.
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Stealing this.
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The funniest part was because it was done because everyone complained that wrath dungeons were too easy, so they tuned the cata dungeons to be hard and people flipped out.
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Cata dungeons were not hard they were tedious. Needing to reduce mob count during every pull in order to achieve success isn’t hard. Sap and sheep are not complicated and never have been.
I’m sorry but the top M+ players would make very short work of cata dungeons were they released today.
Cata is when I first started healing. My experience contradicts your experience heavily. Sorry to be the person who says it, but in the vacuum we are in are you sure there wasn’t some aspect to yourself causing the kicks?
Dont get me wrong, I’m not saying no one was ever kicked, but it was no worse than wrath in my own experience. The worst aspect I personally remember was folks not CCing, resulting in more frequent mana breaks.
To each their own I suppose, but I didn’t have any worse issues with toxicity than was in Wrath. I’d say overall the game has ‘calmed down’ a lot in toxicity outside trade chats. Toxcity seems more tied to the times and gamming community in general than expansion in my view.
I think the biggest issue the OP is trying to portray is content that can be pugged yet everyone brings mythic+ content which cannot easily be pugged post 15 even now unless you already have the gear as getting it in pre-patch by yourself without a guild/group of players is super tedious and not worth the effort. cata heroics were a pug thing and were tough to pug (tho super easy in a guild/premade group).
What the OP wants is tough puggable content with a system where pugs can still get good gear without haveing to “get guud” as the saying goes. Basically they want their cake and to eat it too…
Now with that said, my only complaint with M+ is the timer, yes 1 and only 1 complaint, the timer. I cannot enjoy high keys at all due to the timer, the timer makes the difficult moot point as timers = gearchecks by default and once gear is high enough, skill matters much less. I’d love hard content with no timer at all that didn’t take 18+ minutes (I really hate mythic raiding, if a fight takes more than 5-8 min I’m simply not interested as I have better things to do with my life than wipe on it over and over). But I’m either the minority or just an ignored part of the game, guess I’ll try pvp in shadowlands to see if they fixed it since I haven’t pvp’d since WoD and even then got steamrolled lol. I swear I spend more time leveling alts and doing old content for mounts/mogs than playing bfa.
I am pretty sure nearly the entire basis of m+ disagrees with this statement.
There is a reason why some people top out at 15s. And some do 25s.
These statements seem to contradict each other.
You want hard content…you just dont want it hard enough you have to learn it and risk wiping?
If you go into a fight 1 shotting everything, I question if it was ever “hard”.
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Not to be a jerk, but you have no high-key achievements on the account you’re posting on. I can assure you if you start pushing higher keys things like missing an interrupt, or fumbling a mechanic will cause you issues. So if you want harder content, push keys, problem solved.
Outside of that, diminishing casual player’s ability to do more content by getting rid of content difficulty scaling activities(heroics, mythic 0, low keys) will abundantly shrink the player-base and have you subbing to a different MMO when this one goes under from lack of population.
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This simply isn’t true. I can take a very skilled player and an unskilled player in the same gear, and one will nearly double or more in performance than the unskilled player. The timer makes your decision making in the moment more vital. Decision making speed is a form of intelligence; like it or not, being required to do things quickly and efficiently while pushing out high performance for your character and role is skillful play.
Sitting there waiting for your cooldowns to come up is the antithesis of skill. Anyone can wait for lust to come up for every hard pack or boss. Cheesing one mob at a time. The timer makes you have to think about when and where you use abilities, and cooldowns, and potions. It makes you required to play your character well. Anyone who says the timer does not encourage the necessity of good play is fooling themselves.
There’s a reason mythic raid bosses are on enrage timers. Timers have always forced players to improve their game to defeat content. It’s literally been in the game on raid bosses far longer than dungeons.
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Spoken like someone who has never done any M+…in those “massive AOE pulls” you better believe people are using interrupts and hard CC as a ghetto interrupt. Any knucklehead can CC every pull it takes real coordination to manage a mass pull with several mechanics going on.
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have you even ran m+ op? cuz high keys are exactly what you want - CC’s, interrupts, and hard bosses. the currency is locked to weekly highest (residuum) and not per run.
now if residuum goes away in SL, well thats a problem with SL. but they took that extra time to fix the problems, right?
So how do you address the fact that without the scaling difficulty of m+, the old style of heroic dungeons quickly become irrelevant once you have the gear from them?
My memory is a bit hazy, but I mostly recall running BC dungeons to grind rep or just to work on an alts gear. There wasn’t really a reason for your mains to keep doing dungeons, which is the problem that led to m+.
Many of us are thankful to have incentive to continue running dungeons on our mains for the entire expansion.
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This guy is absolutely correct. Not to mention the added difficulty of doing those ‘massive AOE pulls’ while not only running the mechanics on hundreds of % increased health/dmg but also while there are affixes that are intentionally designed to make every aspect of running the content more difficult beyond the general dungeon mechanics. lol
There aren’t very many people in the world who can truly say they capped out all the content and need harder content to play.