Because that’s the human lore of wow, they all look like they are out of Arthurian legend. And they already share the arthurian legend motif, all we are doing is adding more world building to them rather than just being a cosmetic gimick.
I don’t think everyone would think its fantastic because humans have subjective opinions.
The twitter mob does not matter in the real world.
They are inconsequential and insignificant.
Absolutely no need for this.
Look at Dwarves, trace a circle with Ironforge at its centre and see how far apart the Wildhammer and the Dark Iron are from it.
Why should’ve they?
Did Orcs lose theirs? Did Gilnean or Kultiras?
And if that happened…so what? Most of the kingdoms are gone now, and the resulting human race would probably be a mixture of heritages that lives together under Stormwinds rule.
Want to play as a “full” Stormwindian who just looks a bit different because of your ancestry? Cool.
Want to play as an Alteraci (with whatever distinct features these had), that has kept his traditions and customs even after fleeing war and seeking refuge in Stormwind? Cool too.
The only thing this more elaborated bakcground would give, is a more plausible explanation that elaborates on how the demographic of Stormwind became what it is to this day.
It really resonates with the theme present in a LOT of modern day countries to be honest. And the usage given to it, would depend entirely on player agency.
But at least, the setting wouldn’t be a shallow poodle that takes tokenism as the go-to option, and relies on player headcanon to explain bits that should’ve been elaborated by the ones in charge of the narrative.
First of all, that would be no retcon.
Retcons imply the substitution of former canon.
We are dealing with blanks here.
The human lore is so shallow, that writers could decide that humans were initially all green and praised Shrek alongside Tyr, and that wouldn’t contradict a single story beat up until the First War.
Secondly, and about the cultural impact…that’s the point.
No real impact is needed there.
Physical differences shouldn’t have a major impact in the cultural development, even if they should have an expanded reasoning as to how they came to be.
Again, as i said to Daiza, there is NO NEED to go down the stereotypical route for these physical appearences.
European history is rich enough to encompass a WIDE range of physical differentiation without needing to lean of Africa or Asia.
EDIT:
Take a look at the aesthetic of Gilneas and Boralus.
And take a look at the aesthetic of Dalaran.
Now, compare all three with the one of Stormwind.
Would you say that said “changes” felt forceful or negative?
Besides, why would they need to be changed simply because a particular kingdom had it’s people sport a series of physical traits?
Why are you assuming that because some have black or “asian” features, they cant be part of the European/Arthurian fantasy?
There is absolutely no reason why they can’t. You know how many centuries does the European fantasy and folklore encompass? How many distinct peoples make up Europe these days?
What appear to be Asian features do not need to be related to RL Asia.
What appear to be Black features do not need to be related to RL Africa.
It really is that simple.
Who brought the skull measurers back to this thread?
you did my man.
I think you don’t understand how this is a circular fallacy. In the end we would come back to the same point. Okay, the black humans came from a certain place, but it has the exact same culture as the humans in Stormwind.
Asian humans came from elsewhere, but have exactly the same culture as Stormwind. Because in the end what matters in all of this is, what impact did it have on human culture?
So we’re back to the issue of Stormwind’s culture still being generic. Dwarves on the other hand have different cultures, the physical aspects are reflected in a different culture.
In the case of humans you want them to be different but still the same, I don’t see the point in that. As well as being something that people would easily associate with cultural imperialism.
That’s a lie. The community on twitter matters to devs, and there have even been times when content generators who know devs have stated that they generally pay a lot of attention to twitter because it affects their PR.
What has always been said is that the devs care very little about the official forums.
No…
The point i noted in my opening post. The solution for human shallowness would probably come by expanding on this template:
Now, just fill in the blanks with whatever development you want out of them. These blanks include: physical appearence, cultural distinctions (including garment, etc.), and may even include societal differences.
Left out religion, but it can also be included with ease.
Said template by the way, was roughly taken out of a D&D web that uses a similar one for their human characters and its like the most basic one you’d find to start the world building of ANY setting.
Take a look at the Orc clans both MU and Maghar.
Orcs in WoW suffered from a similar background as humans: a calamity that forced all their people to unite under the same banner and now live together in the same city even if each of them has a different heritage.
Look at the heritage quest-line they had introduced some months ago, and at the expansion of WoD (for the latter, leave aside for a moment the villain batting).
That’s the sort of development humans lack.
And yes, even if the MU orcs lost it due to Fel, Maghar orcs still sport notable physical differences as well as cultural ones when looking at their different clans.
And that development DOES mark cultural distinctions. WITHOUT leaving aside the physical differentiation of the race in question.
Which empty blanks? Human lore is well established, and is largely grounded in Arthurian tales. It is a European culture to its core. See, it’s not that I disagree with you that humans need more complexity.
What I’m pointing out is the complexity of what you ask. And the possible implications I can think of in 5 minutes into a conversation. It would take a lot of effort to do that. It would require you to change aspects of the lore that people already know.
I think in this case, Blizzard’s attitude is basically let’s promote diversity without major consequences, let’s throw in these black and Asian humans and that’s it. It’s the same thing we see in Hollywood today, a classic case being that black Achilles on the Netflix series that caused some backlash but didn’t seriously affect the project.
I’m just saying to you that if they had to do that, it would inevitably change the lore, and it would inevitably have these humans having a different culture, which was never mentioned in the game, because people would immediately ask for it, and then they would later be bothered by the fact that although they have this culture at the end of the day it’s all a European theme still.
And then cancel culture would pick a side, and that would suck for Blizzard’s PR. They can avoid all these possible complications by choosing not to explain why, and I think the facts show that they have already made that choice.
Sorry if i repeat myself, but basically the ones that make a complete sentence out of this one:
Kingdom _______: Its history is defined by ________. Descendants of this kingdom have features such as _______. Some aspects of their culture include _____. Their garbs and clothing are ________.
Because, lets be honest with ourselves:
To say that the human background as is, would sufficiently fill them in the same way it does for other races, is either a gross simplification or a up straight lie.
What complexity did it have to introduce Kul Tiras in BfA?
Because lets analyse its case further.
It has:
a) Cultural distinctions: naval focused, with an overall pirate theme as complement, Lovecraftian inspirations to add certain flavour,…
b) Distinct physical appearance: bulkier and skinnier human models.
c) Religious differentiation: Tidesages, etc.
d) Architectonic uniqueness.
And i could go on. Do a tour around Boralus, and then circle back to Stormwind.
The difference is appalling.
For the rest of human kingdoms the task would even be far easier, as you wouldn’t need to create from scratch their entire location. Most are already in ruins.
So you’d get away with it, by having flavour quest texts, a prequel novel, or whatever you liked to fill the gap.
Then, if you willed it to and wanted to continue the plot that Danath Trollbane already hints at, you could end up revamping certain locations like Stromgarde to have a more unique aesthetic.
Like they did with Gilneas, or with Kul Tiras.
And the explanation wouldn’t even be lore-breaking regarding what we already see ingame, as most of the settlements would need to be rebuilt from scratch.
And you could handwave them looking different by simply stating that its people chose to rebuilt them as they once were before they fell.
That’s called tokenism.
And I’ll repeat that i don’t like it one bit.
Its lazy, it’s patronising, and its awful storytelling.
It’s the equivalent of switching pins between the LGTB flag and the BLM one depending on the month.
And thus why I’m 100% perfectly fine with them not going any further than that.
Again if we need to flesh out the other human kingdoms of Azeroth, perfectly cool with that. Lord knows they need it.
I just really don’t care to be from Fantasy Africa though.
And I repeat, that’s completely valid and reasonable.
Didn’t see anyone saying that here though (although i may be mistaken, as i didn’t read each and every answer to this thread).
And those that do…well, the usual racist drivel. Block and/or report and moving on.
And how would you feel that while doing such, for any of the remaining kingdoms that didn’t have the attention Kul Tiras or Gilneas had, writers also expanded on how said kingdoms sported these visually distinct features as one of their dominant physical characteristics (be them black, or “asian”)?
Bear in mind, and I’ll repeat again, that these wouldn’t be “Fantasy Africa”, but one of the other untold background/stories regarding Alterac, Stromgarde, Dalaran,…
Blizzard should have really made flags and tabards for the current and extinct human kingdoms so people can role play as an Alteracti or a Stromgardi if they wanted to
Rather they had done more than that.
Not saying every kingdom deserved what Kul Tiras had in BFA, but yeah, at least an approximation to it would’ve been nice.
EDIT: Oh, and again, Dalaran should’ve never been made Neutral.
I’d roll my eyes and very much hope that however way they do so does not turn them into Fantasy Africa or Asia. Which again, because of WoW’s already bad tendencies, I’d have very low expectations that they don’t go for incredibly low hanging fruit, when I personally would have just been fine with just fleshing out the cities cultures and the like without having to add skin tones to the mix.
Do you think that the treatment given to PoC on other settings such as D&D or Elder Scrolls is eye-roll inducing? Because i personally think that these stories can indeed be well written.
Also, I’d say that Blizzard would have VERY limited options to create their “Fantasy Africa” or Asia, when dealing with the fact that they have to elaborate said plot while parting from the base that:
And the list could go on.
In all, I’d say that would extremely narrow the chances for Blizzard to create their Wakanda (theme already taken by the Zandalari by the way).
As i told Karestae, those are indeed valid concerns.
But again, they exemplify the fact that the issue isn’t about the story per se.
The issue lies with the fact that we think WoW has mediocre writers.
Not an unfounded concern, by the way.
But I must say that I rebel against the concept that we are to settle with mediocrity because “Oh well…they probably can’t do any better”.
That excuse and the “But racist players would misuse these features!”, is up there in my list of things that shouldn’t be defining for the narrative course and depth.
Even if, at the end of the day, they end up being.
Yes actually. I do. Elder Scrolls and the Redguards was one of the major reasons why I feel the way I do. Because depending on how you read Elder Scrolls lore (because gods Elder Scrolls lore…) Redguards are aliens from another dimension who’s homeland sank to the bottom of the sea or got eaten by a god or something before landing in Hammerfell.
Which would be an amazing story…if they weren’t the only way to make a black human lol.
Which is part of the problem and why I’d rather them not even try. It’s already known that a lot of PoC cultures and what not are folded into the other various races of Azeroth, particularly the ones you see on the Horde.
Look how well they tend to be treated. I’d rather they just…not.
It isn’t simply that they probably can’t do any better. Warcraft as a setting is pretty much firmly set in stone, with all the terrible decisions within. The need for retconning and background changes done specifically to shoehorn the stuff like this in, will always come across as pandering to me. And one thing I hate more than people being intentionally racist, are those trying to pander to me to prove they aren’t.
I’d honestly prefer they flesh out the kingdoms we already have, flesh them out properly give them their own cultures and what not for the sake of fleshing them out. Not because they need to find a place where black people come from so people don’t freak out.
The thing with humans is precisely the fact that they have very little settled for them.
You repeat that it would retcon certain things.
What exactly would it retcon? We know close to nothing regarding Stromgarde, Dalaran, Alterac, or Stormwind for that matter.
The recent development Kul Tiras had, remains a testimony of how Blizzard can elaborate on the given setting without incurring in any major retcon (aside from the Tandred one, i honestly can’t think of any other one Kul Tiras had).
The same would apply for the rest of kingdoms.
And regarding this bit:
I’ve NEVER stated that to be my intention with this thread.
But as I said a few posts above:
Notably distinct features amongst the same race, are relevant lore bits for any narrative.
This applies to all fantasies, and in WoWs case, has often allowed Blizzard to create entirely new playable factions within the same race. i.e: Dark Iron Dwarves, Zandalri Trolls, Highmountain Tauren, Blood/Void Elves,…
True, these shouldn’t be the defining factor regarding any racial collective. But its very very disingenuous to say that they aren’t, or shouldn’t, be a big part of it.
The crux here isn’t to build a kingdom to dump in it Asian or Black people.
Is to build depth for the already existing human kingdoms, while yes, taking advantage of the fact that there are notable differences already in place that could at the same time be used to differentiate them even further.
Much like Kul Tiras introduced brawnier and skinnier humans.
PS: I honestly LOATHE having to wade across these misconceptions and buzzwords whenever discussing these matters (things that certain people turn into blatant strawmen). Not complaining about you in particular Daiza, only speaking in general terms. But its frankly so so tiring…
I’m certain that is not your intention with the thread.
Humans have an annoying problem when compared to the other races in this setting. Like, there aren’t separate nations of light purple night elves and dark purple night elves.
The closest equivalent is amusingly the orcs, where post WoD was how different clans come in different shades of brown, darker brown, grey and black. And even those clans aren’t treated as “separate races”. But the orcs at least keep a very shared aesthetic and overarching culture.
Could humans be done in a similar vein? Probably, I will admit. But humans on a meta level are not orcs. While the orc clans had an overarching culture, the human kingdoms be vastly different. Or at least they were before they collapsed into just being Stormwind .
Well, I’d say that given the fact that all human kingdoms part from the same background, they would have enough similarities to maintain a somewhat shared overarching theme.
Even if they create iterations akin to those we had for Gilneas and Kul Tiras.
Thematically speaking? Keep the european fantasy and folklore in its various forms and moments in time.
But from that point on…go crazy. Its not as if they don’t have themes to draw inspiration from.
Some examples:
-Have Dalaran double on the South Eastern Europe (Turkey) and countries of Central Asia aesthetics, and mix those themes with the progressive ideas about furthering knowledge and meritocracy instead of religion and monarchy. To some extent, it matches some of the themes that dominated Europe’s middle ages in those areas, when we had pioneers such as Ibn Sina and his medical advancements.
-For lack of a better way to describe it, give Stromgarde a theme more in line with Rohan, as opposed to Stormwind being more like Gondor. I’d say said comparsion sums up what sort of distinction i mean.
-Have Alterac take on the slavic fantasy as an iteration of their Nord roots. Much like Kislev in Warhammer.
-Expand on Lordaeron being the most religious kingdom, maybe take a few notes from the Inquisition (they already do for the Scarlets anyways). Even if the bulk of its population would still be in the Forsaken, that would help define better the fact that most of the Light faith has settled around its lands, and expand on those few Lordaeron refugees living in Stormwind.
Those are some ideas out of some hurried spitballing, but i think that they summarise well the sort of development i mean.
I really struggle to understand why they didn’t do this when they did it for the Orcs. It makes absolutely zero sense.