The shallowness of Human Lore in Warcraft--Why?

Exhibit of literally what I just talked about earlier. :rofl:

What if they said black humans are from Redridge and the Asian looking humans are from Alteract and the brown humans were originally from Stromgarde?

There done. The human clan lore is done. :person_shrugging:
Why is the solution the worst possible take? Its like you are trying to convince yourself you deserve crap. There is so much human lore that’s untapped that Blizzard could literally do anything.

Let’s assume for a second that Blizzard has really competent and caring writers (how true is this, is a debate on itself…but bear with me):

It would be really dumb of Blizzard to create such background.

Humans in WoW have a very specific heritage and backstory, and any development they would have, would need to accommodate to not only said background but to the rest of the settings.

In terms of going down the stereotypical routes (Asian features from Fantasy Asia, and black features from Fantasy Africa), that’s a door that has been completely closed, as there is no way to reconcile such with the settings history.

Humans arrived at the EK, and it was there where they developed their cultures, kingdoms, and nations. They didn’t reach Pandaria, nor Kalimdor.

BUT, and i think its an important bit, that doesn’t prevent them from having an expanded lore regarding how they developed significant physical differences amongst each other.

I don’t want to go on a long post detailing what i would do, but to put it short i’d have for example certain features being associated with specific kingdoms.

Which again, DO NOT need to abide to any sort of stereotype you mention. Because you are right, most story tend to go down that “easy” route.
But WoW could be, and would need to be, different in said regard.

The EK is a massive continent.
And just like Dwarves developed distinct traits depending on where their clan ended up living, humans could do the exact same. Without the lazy stereotyping you mentioned.

That would basically be my proposal.
Which truth be told, would be the exact same one the Maghar, Trolls, Dwarves, Elves, and basically every other WoW race, had.


But again, all that parts from the assumption that “meta” problems such as a racist chunk of the playerbase, are to be dealt with without turning said problem into one that ultimately dictates how the story is to be written.

As someone who also followed for some time the Game of Thrones universe, I must say that i’m immensely thankful about how the book author has always opted to NOT cave in to fan demands or behaviour.
I’d say that doing such was the main reason for the pile of garbage that the last TV season turned to be.

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100%
That is correct.

Even on EK there are places the humans can’t be from like Stranglethorn Vale because humans never expanded there. So you can’t say there used to be a human civilization/kingdom there because there is no lore evidence or possibility of one.
The Gurubashi would have murdered them all

Best you can do is work within the current setting that you have.
For example Alteract, Northern Lordaeron where EPL and WPL are located, different corners of Stormwind and some measure of Stromgarde.

There is a lot of stuff we can pull in to “justify” Humans of different skin tones.

Considering all the racist tropes that blizz put in the game and then had to change years later?

You’re being overly generous if you think they could handle your suggestion with the care and justice it deserves

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They certainly had the care and justice it deserved for the Orcs.

Far too many times Horde lore for its races are fleshed out but Alliance just gets focused on two or three individual characters and people think thats the lore for humans or Alliance in general

Thats no defense.
I will take a bad attempt over no attempt any day

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I rather them not attempt it all if they aren’t going to do it right the first time around. But that’s me. I just don’t trust this writing team to get it right is all.

this entire franchise is a mix of bad writing.

Alliance players do not deserve less to placate the twitter mob or be afraid of an extreme minority of people with bad RL takes.
Neither of these groups matter.

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I WANT the alliance to better fleshed out, just like everybody else. I just want more people like, say Roux, who have the talent and intelligence to do it in a way the satisfies all alliance players

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There are countless ways to bring complexity to humans without having to develop a lore that addresses the reasons why humans have certain skin colors and Asian features.

In fact this is a topic that would only exist to generate controversy, as it was never relevant to the lore, and I already see videos of Asmongold ridiculing it.

Furthermore, the complexity this would bring to the lore of humans would only exist on the surface. Since the reality is that humans today live in a homogenized way within the kingdom of Stormwind.

It would only be a superficial justification that would not serve any purpose for the narrative, since it does not really matter, since there is no real reflection on the culture of humans. And I find the comparison with orcs meaningless, when skin color in orc culture serves to explain something that has to do with cultural diversity.

Humans need complexity that has to do with recovering lore from other kingdoms, and they need Stormwind to become more sophisticated, rather than the generic kingdom it is today.

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You would be doing both. You would flesh out the humans in ways that are needed badly and then sprinkle the “Oh this ethnic group is from Noble House xyz or from Alteract/Stromgarde/Strathholm/etc”

These aren’t mutually exclusive.
Again with the reductive takes :expressionless:

Its like trying to convince a person that blieves they can’t have a sandwhich and steak at the same time… you could make a steak sandwhich. You could have both. Its like Blizzard’s instance that Renewal and Revenge can’t coexist.

Ok, lets be real for a second: Notably distinct features amongst the same race, are relevant lore bits for any narrative setting.

This applies to all fantasies, and in WoWs case, has often allowed Blizzard to create entirely new playable factions within the same race. i.e: Dark Iron Dwarves, Zandalri Trolls, Highmountain Tauren, Blood/Void Elves,…

True, these shouldn’t be the defining factor regarding any racial collective. But its very very disingenuous to say that they aren’t, or shouldn’t, be a big part of it.

In the humans case, I personally acknowledge (even if reluctantly, as i believe its far more rooted in meta excuses than actual storytelling) the point of view certain people have about them requiring extra care when handling.

But i’ll repeat, lets not kid ourselves negating the obvious.

Distinctiveness matters a lot in world building.

100% agree on this.
But referring to what i say above, one thing does not negate the other.
You should expect all that, AND have the aforemention visual distinction. Even if its but a footnote in the greater scheme of narrative depth you’d be giving a particular human segment.

I think the resistance comes from those people who say things like Black humans should be from Strangelthorn and other such claims. It’s not going to end well. At all. Blizzards writing team doesn’t have the skills or nuance to do it justice

Also, it just opens a can of worms nobody really wants to deal with it.

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That’s Baal terrible take and worldbuilding suggestion. The guy legitimately thinks Terry Goodkind is a good writer. I would take his suggestions of what good worldbuilding could be with a grain of salt.

There are no worms. there are no cans. Just people waiting to be angry at something.

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I didn’t know whose suggestion it was. I just seen it thrown around a few times is all.

I’m just saying there’s a way to give humans in WoW more lore without adding potential racist overtones to it is all.

Both concerns are of course, valid.

Still, they would be what call “meta” blockers:

  1. Bad Writers.
  2. Racist players.

Want to know how i would handle that?

  1. Hire better writers.
  2. Better policing that punishes racist players.

And that’s it.
There is nothing else stopping you from setting the bar a bit higher than the most superficial tokenism because some dude or dudette in Moonguard or Argent Dawn (EU rp server), would misuse the theme you created for a specific race of Space Robots.

Then, you can go nuts.
Scrolling up this thread you’ll find some sugestions i made, which include but are not limited to: Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, D&D, Elder Scrolls, Warhammer,…

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Baal didn’t come up with the “black people come from Stranglethorn” bit as some sort of strawman. That’s a thing that pops up from time to time already.

At the very least, I’ve been aware of that kind of suggestion long before Baal ever started posting on the forums.

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Oh really? Ok then I am sorry for impugning his character.
I just saw it in this thread while scrolling through and thought it was his bad strawman

Yeah plenty of people have bad suggestions and takes but we are throwing the baby out with the bath water here

I think you are ignoring a very important aspect of this. First, these physical characteristics are reflected in substantial cultural differences.

But let’s accept this justification of yours for a moment. The problem with this narrative is that it would allow 2 possible ways of doing it.

The first would be, these different looking humans came from somewhere else, suppose they came from an island. If that were the case, they would for example have cultural aspects reminiscent of Asian culture or African culture.

But if so, then they have undergone an assimilation process upon arriving in EK and have lost all their cultural identity. And many players would not like that.

Then suppose case 2. Blizzard performs a retcon, and black humans as suggested in this thread came from Redridge Mountain and the Asians came from Alterac. The problem with this narrative is that again it wouldn’t have any impact on their culture.

Since in both places, all constructions are inspired by European architecture, and what you have is a theme that has nothing to do with the physical characteristics of that character.

Suppose Blizzard decides to go all the way, and then they retcon that now these locations actually have an aesthetic associated with black and Asian culture, many players would also complain a lot about this. Especially because, in the case of the humans of Redridge, this mattered little for the dominant characteristic of the Kingdom of Stormwind to be a kingdom inspired by a European theme. In other words, there is a master culture and there is a culture that is just a forgotten niche.

That is, we are back to the point where blacks and Asians adopted a European culture and this does not expand absolutely anything from the culture of humans.

So I guess you apparently haven’t thought deeply into the implications of this.

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No they wouldn’t, Just because they look asian doesn’t mean they would also have their culture. Pandas of Panderia already cover that and the trolls cover the african and south american cultures. These humans would still be the same Arthurian legend motif but just have different ethnic looks compared to white humans.

Your premise is wrong.

There is no adoption, they are that culture but they just have more identity than just being coasters and a minority that exists for the sake of existing and nothing else.

Oh I see, so you want to portray Asians and Blacks as part of European culture, and you think everyone would think that’s fantastic?

I’d say it’s even funny that you don’t understand the hornet’s nest Blizzard would be getting into if they made that move.

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