The Scarlet Crusade

Lore Story Forum
41

Honestly with the timeskip and new developments a revamp of Silverpine Forest being a contested zone where Worgen PC’s and Forsaken PC’s discover a fringe Scarlet group is trying to make it look the otherside is trying to pick a fight with the other results in them investigating things and discovering them and eventually as a sort of ‘climax’ to the zone being a teamup of Forsaken and Gilnean forces against the Scarlets before ending off with some revamp of Shadowfang Keep as a Scarlet Dungeon would be kinda cool.

It could highlight the uneasiness of Gilneans and the Forsaken rebuilding their nations and eventually coming to realize they can coexist especially when met with a common enemy, is it campy and cheesy? Sure but Warcraft works best when its simple and goes for hoorah moments like that.

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42

That could work. But personally I really think the Forsaken and Worgen working together could be neat.

It’s the most one sided rivalry in game. They apparently had this plan to turn Gilneas City into an urban EBG and presumably make the Worgen the Alliance’s answer to the Forsaken.

But that plan fell to ish and ever since then it’s just been a bit weird the Worgen hold the Forsaken as this great enemy. When the Forsaken don’t think about the Worgen much at all. It was a war they were gang pressed into by Garrosh. They didn’t want to fight it. They gained nothing from it. And the whole idea seemed like a suicide mission from Garrosh to begin with as why invade Gilneas for a port when you could just build one off the coast of Tirisfal?

Seriously Tirisfal’s coast is only occupied by Murlocs. And even then only parts of it. Far as I can tell the reason the Forsaken didn’t build them is they create their navy by raising sunken ships. That’s certainly on brand but I still have no idea how they do that with sunken ships. Unless it turns out they’re ‘alive’ too and seeing as everything from rocks to honey can become sentient in this setting I guess that wouldn’t be too weird.

But it is objectively sad that the Forsaken are this huge role in the Worgen’s lore, so much so it’s in their heritage quest, and the Forsaken’s reaction to them is more or less;

It’s the humans who are the main threat. They’re the ones actively trying to get Lordaeron back. The Worgen are just kinda there.

Personally I think one of the reasons this failed to launch is because the Forsaken and Worgen only look good fighting exclusively eachother. Add in the other factions and it looks like the glowing eyed horror movie monsters should be on the same side.

So I say, put them on the same side and give them an enemy that blatantly clashes with their aesthetics. The Scarlets are perfect for this. Their humans, which are what werewolves and the undead are most known to kill. They have a bright red color scheming which loudly clashes with the Forsaken’s navy blue and the Gilnean’s black flags. And the Scarlets have this pseudo medieval Catholic architecture while the Worgen are Victorian and the Forsaken have a sort of Kirkland brand Tim Burton thing going on.

It’s instantly visually striking. You know who’s on what side at a glance. And it keeps with the WoW tradition of disobedient fairytale by having the scary things be the objective heroes.

Frankly I think the Worgen and Forsaken would work much better as the EK’s answer to the Kaldorei and Tauren. Because they’re both ex humans with a supernatural urge to kill, replete with glowing eyes, claws and muted color pallets. Particularly as they’re BFFs with elves who’ve millenias old bloodfeuds.

Maybe it’s just me but I can picture a Spellbreaker and Sentinel having some no doubt terribly overdramatic fight with weapons that have just too many points to them while their Forsaken and Worgen allies give a token effort in the background.

“Evenin’ Klaus”
“Hi Gregor”
“So them elf lads at it again?”
“Yup, yup. Just look busy. You know how this goes.”
“So yew 'eard about that new ogre git?”
“Oh the new two headed one who decided to be a chef?”
“Ya 'eard he’s got a new joint on Lordamere called - get this - ‘How To Serve Man’”
“Well location, location, location they say”
“Free this Thursday?”

“What you call weakness- we call strength. While your kind cowered in the trees it was we what-”

“Eh, let’s see how this goes. You know how maudlin they get”

And what better to set that up then a fun mutual hunting trip?

43

If there’s living Lordaeronians still around besides Turalyon (undead ones nonwithstanding), that is good.

Come on now, I meant making new enemies like Denathrius, who a growing number of players think would’ve made a better main antagonist for Shadowlands than the Jailer. And Garrosh wasn’t exactly an old villain, either. By the way, what makes the Scarlets “fun to fight”?

Stormwind’s not the only faction in the game with “knight in shining armor” imagery and you know it; in fact, the topic of this thread is about a villainous group who subverts that imagery. Plus you downplayed their role in Wrath.

By the way, when you say “Amani” do you mean the Amani Empire or the Amani tribe?

Dial back the personal attacks, buddy. You don’t want to go down that road.

Apart from you mistakenly thinking my remarks were an attempt to whitewash them, I agree with everything else you said here.

In what world is it whitewashing to say that it cheapens the narrative of Lorderaen survivors if the only ones we see are villainous ones used as the story’s punching bags?

44

Those quests are atmospheric and bleak. The lore around them is enough material for a few sidequests, but not an expansion, especially since the perpetrators those acts are already dead and paid for their crimes (and are probably still paying for them in Revendreth).

As for Gilneas, I think you’re trying to project or insert religious conflict where it didn’t exist. By which I mean into already established lore that states the main reasons for the conflict between Lorderaen and Gilneas was politics, Gilneas’ geographical isolation, economic issues and disagreements on how to deal with Horde remnants; https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gilneas_(kingdom)#History

45

I was replying to Benedikt. Not you. I agreed with you. That statement you quoted was directed at him, not you.

By thinking the Scarlet Brotherhood are just innocent “survivors of Lordaeron” and ignoring and dismissing the pamphlets which suggest they are planning a coup, he would be easily duped.

I don’t think they are being whitwashed. I think Benedikt is whitewashing them and trying to rebrand them as “friends of Stormwind.” They have always been an enemy to the Alliance, as well as the Horde. I don’t understand the need to bring them into the Alliance and give them a heroic back story, all just to bridge the divide between the Alliance and Forsaken.

46

Give the scarlet brotherhood, the same group that’s dangerous and a human supremacist organization to the alliance with a heroic background….I mean, talk about tone deaf and ugly.

That gets a hard no from me. Evil organizations can be interesting without whitewashing their evil actions

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47

The Conclave, the Priest Order Hall has become a weird mix bag, you have the followers of the Light, lead by Velen. Then they have the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, lead by Nathalie Saline. Then they have the Scarlet Crusade to represent Discipline? I don’t think they thought that through.

They handwaved it all away, and tried to make it work by making it a prophesy Velen foresaw. The Conclave is not Alliance. As far as I know that’s the only place where to Crusade has a benevolent place.

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48

It’s just funny that blizz thinks the crusade represents discipline. These are the same guys who got manipulated by a dreadlord and decided killing everyone not in the crusade was the best way to save everyone

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49

From what I remember the plot to bring them in was very thin. There’s a shadowy diciple. You go to Northrend, meet with a secret deserter, who tells you they don’t like the direction the Crusade is going in, now that it’s not ruled by a Dreadlord. She has you kill these other radical Scarlet Crusaders. Then she brings her band of defectors to the Conclave for a fresh start.

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50

They’re the most martially regimented priests on the planet.

52

Ah, my mistake. Sorry. Thanks for clearing that up.

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53

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And people can like things of poor quality - ever heard of guilty pleasures?

You simply trying to make a strawman of my argument yet again by pretending it’s a mere “I hate when faith in religion is used in a negative light” does not make it so.

I’ve already explained some of the plot holes with Yrel and her "Lightbound, as well as how that sort of villain-batting requires ignoring character progression for both Yrel and Turalyon and you know it. Some of us don’t want those story threads, nor do we want these story threads about the Light to pull us into the edgelord black hole Blizz seems to be railroading us into. I’ve got more questions and plot holes regarding them, but I’m saving that for another time.

The quality of Scarlet Crusade as villains has been going downhill, as they’ve been steadily losing nuance.

The only purpose the new enemy needs to fulfil is opposing protagonist groups. We don’t need to have every group be a zealot. Since you seem to want to assume about personal motives and drag them into this, you speak as if you support this because you like faith in religion being maligned.

“Having survivors of Lordaeron attempting to reclaim their land from the current denizens does not cheapen their narrative” was not my argument and you know that too.

54

They’re unaware about the Dreadlord. Who isn’t leading them in Legion. Because Mal’Ganis turns up on the Broken Shore.

In the quest you free some Scarlets who have been branded heretics and are scheduled for execution. The nature of their perceived apostasy is anyone’s guess. Marielle Ward, the heretic in question, just says;

“Just do it already! I would rather die than spend another day living a life built around your twisted beliefs!” And that’s as deep as we go into it.

By having them launch a war of attrition on an Alliance faction?

55

By having them do good by helping out the Elwynians, as you put it. Your endgame being them returning to Lordaeron and befriending the Forsaken. To show the Alliance they have turned over a new leaf with the foreshadowing of the Scarlet Brotherhood, that’s a dangerous stance to have, that’s what they are counting on, for people like you to not notice what they are doing.

Faction co-operation is one thing. But faction lines, in my opinion, need to stay firm. Granted, this is only my opinion and I am only one Horde player.

I would much prefer the Scarlet Crusade remain a third party antagonist, than a member of the Alliance.

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56

… What?

Reread my post. I’m not sure who you’re responding to but it wasn’t me. I suggested the Forsaken and Worgen bond over murdering the Scarlets.

I did suggest the Forsaken try to absorb the Risen. The undead Scarlets in Tyr’s Hand and Stratholme. Because yeah they’ve a complicated history but they’re still enslaved undead. The Forsaken should do something about that. Plus Voss has both experience in counseling the newly undead and getting over her own Scarlet brainwashing.

I suggested they take advantage of the rampaging Scourge. Stormwind’s armies were depleted at the start of SL and all Alliance leaders with firsthand experience fighting the Scourge are missing or dead.

It’s a pretty golden opportunity for them. The Scarlets are a lot of things but they weren’t actually that bad at fighting the Scourge. They lost because Arthas himself pulled up with a necropolis and a new army of DKs. The Argents only survived because of not just Tirion but also the Ashbringer becoming uncorrupted and freeing the DKs from Arthas’s command.

SW doesn’t need to be welcoming to them but their not in a position to do anything about it. What are they supposed to do? Attack the Scarlets for fending off ghouls they’re struggling to deal with already? Keep in mind we see Lakeshire get completely overrun. They were clearly not prepared for this.

And again that’s merely a suggestion for why they have more numbers. And I’d probably throw in some revelation down the line that shows the Scarlets deliberately made the situation worse just so they could ride in and save the day.

But that’s not strictly speaking necessary as population doesn’t matter in this setting. A single emo elf book club from a race that lost 90% of it’s population less than 20 years ago can field whole standing armies with only a few months of prep time.

So that’s just there as an explanation if we want one. But we certainly don’t need one. There’s always just ‘enough’ of any given group in Azeroth.

57

Why would the Forsaken and Worgen team up? They hate eachother. That’s assinine.

58

Sigh

Because they’ve a mutual genocidal enemy. You know that thing that always brings the disparate factions together?

Also the Forsaken don’t seem to hate the Worgen. Pretty much just a one way street there and if you haven’t noticed they’ve had Genn gradually change his tune on the undead.

59

When did this happen? Just because Calia gave him back Gilneas? That’s not enough to go off of. When have the Scarlet Crusade killed Worgen? Is this genocide you speak of speculative?

60

This concept of ‘whitewashing’ the Crusade shows how little some understand radical, and again in particular, reactionary and religious organizations, especially as they experience defeat and need time to regroup and grow once more.

No one could openly state they were a Confederate loyalist after the Civil War, they became Klan members, Daughters of the Confederacy, various other ‘Lost Cause’ groups, Cops. Few people openly identify as fascists now and take up the OG N@zi ideals, instead they become Neo-N@zis with revised beliefs and modernized talking points. They join your Patriot Fronts, Boogaloo and Proud Boys, your local Libertarian party, become cops. Its what these groups do to maintain membership and espouse their ideals to a wider audience. They change their messaging ever so slightly to appeal to a new audience and taste. No longer can they say that those groups they despise are cockroaches that need to be removed from society, rather “X groups makes our communities unsafe!” and “George Soros funds radical movements!”

Having the Crusade become a “Friends of Stormwind” like organization is the logical conclusion to this. They don’t actually become friends of the Kingdom of Stormwind, rather it is just a front. The Crusade would love nothing more than to replace the current Alliance leadership. They go around saying the current leadership has failed to protect you, with the new Scarlets, peace*, freedom*, justice*, and security* will come to our new empire. They are still as radical as before, they still hold the same general beliefs, but the way in which they present themselves, the talking points they present to your average Stormwind citizen, Arathi citizen, displaced non-worgen Gilnean, radical Order of Embers members, Dalaran citizens wishing for their physical kingdom back or survivors of Forsaken offensives, maybe even disaffected Argents, will change to become more effective to those populations.

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61

In Before The Storm.

Man you’re not caught up with the lore and you’re arguing against points I never made.

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