The Scarlet Crusade

Lore Story Forum
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“Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber barron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations”

  • C.S Lewis

Second only to Tirisfal the main thing I want to see rebuilt in the 5 year time jump is the Scarlet Crusade.

I do miss those guys. They were one of the best villain organizations in the setting and imo were the best human villains in the setting - period. Because they had an actual philosophy and worldview. Which is a pretty rare thing on Azeroth as most bad guys just want to burn, kill, enslave and/or devour everything because they’re pricks like that.

The best story in WoW imo is how we see the Argents surpass them because they have a superior ideology. The Scarlets are dogmatic, xenophobic and fanatical whereas the Argents embrace experimentation, welcome far flung foreigners like the Cenarion druids and even allow undead in their ranks. Their more open minded and flexible approach is what causes the Argents to triumph while the Scarlets wither.

But the thing about ideas is that the bad ones are just as bulletproof as the good ones.

We know from the Legion Priest Hall questline that the Scarlets are still operational in Northrend, and the Alex Jones tier fevered conspiracy theory pamphlets scattered around during the Battle of Lordaeron show they at least have a few agents and a printing press somewhere in Lordaeron.

But it’s been 5 years since an unleashed Scourge rampaged across Azeroth, and we know at the very least they ravaged Lakeshire. I suspect the Alliance would’ve had a rougher time with the loose Scourge. Most of their leaders with experience fighting them were either visiting or permanent residents of the Shadowlands. Making for a pretty ideal situation for the Scarlets to take advantage of.

So let’s say one way or another the Scarlets capitalized on this chaos and were able to rehabilitate their image in the hearts and minds of many humans as an organization that can get the job done. Some call their methods extreme but surely when the enemy is that unthinking and merciless there isn’t such a thing as going too far.

So we’ve a situation where the Scarlets have the sort of manpower not seen since the start of WoW. And they decide to launch a crusade on the northern EKs to reclaim those lost kingdoms of man from the wretched undead Forsaken and tameless Worgen beastmen.

I think this could be interesting in a lot of ways. For one it could give cause for the Gilneans to reevaluate the Worgen curse. The Scarlets aren’t exactly known for reason and patience. If you’re Gilnean you could be a worgen, and you’ve definitely at least aided and abetted the beastfolk which is cause enough to warrant a death sentence. Not to mention they always had those Harvest Witch blasphemers poking around. Probably best to kill them all and let the Light sort it out. If you’re going to be killed whether you have the curse or not, probably best to just have the curse as werewolves are a touch more challenging to lash to a pyre or fit a noose around.

As for the Forsaken this could illustrate to Calia why the Forsaken are as wary of their living cousins as they are. There is no misunderstanding with the Scarlets. To them it is irrelevant how noble or faithful or virtuous an undead might or might not be. They are undead and thusly deserve destruction. Full stop. It also of course gives Voss something to do and I’d also use this as an excuse to bring in the Scarlet Risen into the Forsaken.

I figure you’ve the Scarlets seize territory in Gilneas, Tirisfal and the Plaguelands. I figure they retake their Monastery as well as SFK, their old portion of Stratholme, and perhaps Tyr’s Hand. I’d also have a raid portal on the docks in Tyr’s Hand that would lead to an assault on Onslaught Harbor in Northrend.

And the big twist this time is there isn’t one. There’s no Dreadlords pulling the strings. I’d create a new character, let’s call him High Ecclesiarch Brimstone, because this game has never been subtle so why start now? Have him be a, fittingly enough, fire and brimstone preacher with the eventual intent to march across all of Azeroth and wipe out the aliens, savages, mutants and heretics. Figure you could have cherub like constructs that fly around blasting his raging sermons.

I also figure this could go a long way in establishing a less adversarial relationship between the Forsaken and Worgen. I presume relations will have normalized a bit in the half decade interim but nothing brings people together quite like a genocidal mutual enemy.

Plus I just feel it’d get back to Warcraft 3’s roots as a disobedient fairytale to have a scenario where blessed knights in shining armor are fighting horror movie villains, and it turns out the Halloweentown residents are the heroes of this story.

All in all the Scarlets are one of the better villains they’ve had in this setting and absolutely will have done the “Light Does Not Mean Good” trope far better than whatever they intend to do with the Naru and LForged. If they want us to have a Light based villain - let it be the Scarlets. WoW gets boring quick when it goes cosmic as the machinations of a glowing wind chime are not relatable. But deranged zealots heavenbent on sharing their faith at sword point? There isn’t a corner of this Earth that hasn’t known that problem at one point or another.

So I say bring the Scarlets back and let them be a reoccuring villain that pops up now and again. Not exactly as a headlining expansion villain roll. But they can definitely roll up to menace us in this or that zone for a patch. Plus it lets the horror themed factions go full Jason Voorhees on some squishy humans without any troublesome moral quandaries.

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I came in prepared to disagree because I’ve been irritated at the number of times we’ve been told the Scarlets are GONE FOREVER and then someone reuses them, but you’ve made a convincing argument. I’ll have to chug some soda to get the bad taste out of my mouth from reviving something that was supposed to have been handled with finality once again, but I think it’s a reversal that overall would be better for the game.

Plus, anything Scarlet potentially gives good sources of mogs that might not be terrible to wear in the Eastern Kingdoms tavern RP scene… BFA was a shot in the arm in that respect and covenants are not terrible about it, but I wouldn’t turn down more. Good opportunity to revisit a lot of classic armor; the scarlets wore priestly cloth, outdoorsman’s leathers, and good ol’ mail and plate.

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See what happened is a single builder unit managed to escape.

Seriously though the Scarlets still lurking around makes sense. Unlike most other villainous groups they don’t really rely on a particular power source or specific base of operations nor even any particular leader. Their basis is an ideology of equal parts self important supremacy and homicidal disgust for the perceived unclean. Beliefs like that have a nasty habit of sticking around no matter how hard you bomb the bastards.

That’s why I love to hate them such. They represent a very human feeling threat. They can’t be killed by destroying or banishing some evil king, and they have an ideology that preys on a deadly cocktail of fear and ego.

Plus it’s really funny to me to imagine some of them turning up in Maldraxxus after you bash their brains in.

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Yeah, my problem is moreso the finality with which it was pronounced in Vanilla, then Wrath, then MoP. The core conceit, that it’s an organization you can’t really expunge because it recruits from and takes shelter in organizations and cultures you like, is good.

I think it also offers a good opportunity for some interesting rifting; there will be elements of the Alliance (Church of the Holy Light) that expend – waste – time and effort trying to redeem the Scarlets, appeal to their better nature and shared brotherhood, and that redemptive effort gets someone hurt or worse that didn’t need to be, because you didn’t take the opportunity to stop them when you had the chance.

IRL I’m a big believer in forgiveness, but one thing that many redemption narratives fail to consider is that extending that forgiveness imposes costs on both forgiver and bystander, and it doesn’t always go well. It doesn’t have to be as trite as someone pretending, either. Even after the raid/dungeon/questline, you bring the Scarlet in with their buddies who joined the CoHL/Silver Hand/Argent Whatever We’re Up To Now and maybe the Scarlet is trying to be less violent but oh god are they quietly awful to the Draenei in the church and maybe that Draenei decides… I can get the good stuff sitting in on Velen’s sermons without having to suffer this because a bunch of these humans just believe this guy is alright.

Can see two player factions involved with this; Thalassian Elf/Human faction that’s made of people aggressively trying to return the plaguelands to what they were and includes a lot of former Scarlets who want to redeem their fellows; and a Worgen/Forsaken faction that’s taken up “it’s the way things are now, let’s make the best of it, and kill anyone who keeps trying to stop us”.

A similar treatment for the Grimtotem out in Kalimdor would potentially offer a lot of expansion to Tauren lore. Sorry if it’s off-topic, but I don’t want WoW to slide too hard into the Human Story Zone so my mind immediately goes to thinking of how we could offer similar (but not perfectly mirrored) experiences outside of EK. Kalimdor is still a very boring continent, politically.

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I absolutely feel ya on that but this would be about humans in the same way Friday The 13th is about camp counselors. Only this time there’s a klansmen rally at Crystal Lake just in case there was any lingering confusion about who to root for.

Plus I think this would be a great opportunity for us to see a proper Gilnean war machine. Don’t get me wrong werewolves are a hell of trump card to have, but thats all they ever bring to the party. At most sometimes the werewolves have hunting rifles and a bulldog.

So what else can they do? Personally I’d have Gentlettin. An Ettin with one head adorned with an appropriately sized tophat or monocole who speaks like an upper crust dandy Englishman on one head, while the other remains primal. In Highmountain at least they’ve a sort of hierarchy so they’re not incapable of taking orders. Figure with an INT boost to one head you could make them pretty effective living siege engines.

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Noooooot really sure where the Gilneans get and started training Ettins but that is a hilarious concept. It feels a little jarring from any perspective but aesthetic, so it’d have to be built up. My brain immediately went to siege artillery since Gilneans ‘sell’ guns and Victorianism in their starting zone, but… the humans, dwarves, and gnomes have had pretty much every angle on gunpowder siege weapon technology cornered since Wrath gave them my favorite airships in fantasy.

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Well the Forsaken got them to lug around those coffin chariots pretty quickly so how hard could it be?

I’d also do more with the Harvest Witches. Figure they could serve as broomstick air support. Maybe have them throw exploding flaming jack-o-lanterns.

Oh and with Halloween on the mind you know what could be a fun quest? Tricking some newer Scarlets into disturbing the tomb of the Headless Horseman and having him rampage through their ranks.

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I don’t think whatever is left of the Scarlets will ever truly be able to reform their grand crusade. With the Scourge no-longer being a major threat and the Scarlets largely replaced by the much less fanatical Argent Dawn.
There isn’t really a reason your average human would decided to join the Scarlet crusade anymore instead of the Argent Dawn or the Alliance.
the most we would be able to get out of the Scarlets post Legion,
is a Defias-like nuisance that might occasionally show up to yell slurs at Worgen and Undead before they get slapped into the ground with a comically sized hammer.

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That isnt how ideological fanaticism works though, particularly religious or reactionary. The fanatics remain no matter how big the hammer is. They are true believers who will continue their crusade no matter how adverse it may be. They will find the down trodden, they will find the disassociated and dissatisfied.

There are plenty of reasons why your average human would join any fanatic cult or following, even as a plain foot soldier, cook, or just supporter who wont rat them out. Especially during a time of crisis when traditional systems and institutions have let you down, like Bene is posturing.

It might be a relatively small nuisance that pops up once in a while, but a persistent one whose leadership does not flinch in the face of said comically sized hammer due exactly to their fanaticism and belief.

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Quite a lot can happen in 5 years and Stormwind hasn’t been in the best place. In the span of but a few years they fought a war of attrition so demanding that civilain conscripts were being sent to the front. The Wyrnn dynasty evaporated in the span of a few years. And while Turaylon has a heroic reputation the people now have to meet the flesh & blood man, not the legend, and you know what they say about meeting your heroes.

Suffice to say there will have been a lot of young people coming of age without parents, in a time of unprecedented change, where the legacy of old has to meet the stark, unflattering daylight of reality.

Lot of disaffected young bloods with nothing much to lose and everything to prove. Then along comes a spider, promising them a return to the past glory of the mighty human nations, and more importantly a cause to believe in.

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It would be interesting if there was bits and pieces of circumstantial evidence that convinces the leaders of Azeroth that he’s some malevolent entity masquerading as a human, but it all turns out to be wrong.

There can be a raid or dungeon where the final boss is some kind of horrible monstrosity fitting of the narrative. You assume it’s him, revealing his true form. Then you defeat it, and walk into the next room to see this Brimstone, where you attack… and he just dies in one hit like a critter NPC.

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Personally I’d rip off Zul a bit for this character.

I didn’t play MoP so Zul was new for me, and I was really disappointed he just got empowered by G’hunn and was a standard bossfight. Because that quest in Zuldazar where you work with him was really interesting.

“Good. Now switch out one of Vol’jamba’s potions with de one I gave you. It will be de first one you set your eyes on. No second guessing, now.”

It seemed to me like Zul personally wasn’t much of a threat. The guy looks positively ancient. A down a flight would probably be fatal. But because of his powers of prophecy the guy is constantly 12 steps ahead of everyone. If you could get your hands on him it’d be over instantly. But you never will, because he saw this happen weeks ago and has moved stuff around ever so slightly to ensure you trip up.

So it was pretty lame he just zoomed around throwing blood and shadow magic at you.

I’d have this guy be a bit more clever. Like he just runs away and you keep getting slowed and knocked down as he’s seen exactly how this plays out and left strategic lose tials, spilled sacred oil and maybe a banana peel to frusturate your pursuit.

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The Scarlet Crusade is gone. The Scarlet Onslaught are former Scarlet Crusaders who split from the main organization and emigrated during Wrath. Though between constant attacks, lack of childbirth and dissenters being killed or leaving, the Scarlet Onslaught are a dwindling presence at best. The Scarlet Brotherhood are a footnote, but a possible seed.

But there are pitfalls. Throughout expansions, the Scarlet Crusade and their offshoots kept getting trotted out as punching bags for the players and losing their nuance as they go. At best, the Scarlet Crusade are starting to get stale as villains and this could be the point where the playerbase says “stop, stop, they’re already dead!”. At worst, the above happens and they also become strawmen used to shoehorn the devs’ ideological commentary/demagoguery on real-life issues into the game.

So ultimately, I think it could work IF it avoids the pitfalls I mentioned. Plus I agree that it’s better than the edgelord stuff they tried to do with the Naaru and Lightforged (on that note; they can’t sell AU Light Mother Naaru as a threat given how easily MU Light Mother Naaru was jobbed by a blind fel junkie).

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Not having Scarlets in 9.2.5 was a missed opportunity

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It might be because of the constant raising of stakes, but I feel like the Scarlet Crusade just lacks a certain “umph.” Sure, the idea of zealous, fanatical, racists as antagonists is interesting for many reasons. Among the reasons that is interesting is because of how close to reality it can be. But in this setting, there is only so far they can go without a power up or maybe a team up.

Even if Yrel and her Lightbound do become evil - at least she had the good sense to “convert” “nonbelievers” to her cause, regardless of their race. So, if she does go on a crusade, it has growth potential, so to speak.

I think the only ways the Scarlet Crusade can get more Humans is to :

Replicate the Titans ability to create constructs while also replicating the Old God’s curse of flesh to turn those constructs Human. I suppose if the Scarlet Crusade started trying to make designer Humans without normal reproduction, that would be a new way to go for them.

Or

Going across the cosmos and the multiverse and space and time, gathering Humans from every iteration of Azeroth

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Dialing back the Kill anyone not like us attitude by about 10 levels, usually makes people more sympathetic or at least willing to listen to ones cause, even if said members are all deranged

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How do you define zealots? If the definition is following a religion, people can also be zealots about things besides religion (non-religious concepts and ideologies like communism, capitalism, socialism, racism, nepotism, environmentalism, fascism, progressivism, democracy, monarchy, anarchism, atheism…). Besides, you’ve also got villains motivated by greed, pride, lust, envy, ones who were deceived…

If anything, zealots are overdone in WoW. We have the Scarlet Crusade, Scarlet Onslaught, Scarlet Brotherhood, we have some of Zovaal’s servants such as the Mawsworn, we have various Void zealots, we have the Drust, we have zealous worshipers of Loa, zealots who worship the Titans…

:yawning_face:

Quite cliche.

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Like most people. Let’s go with the Google and say :

a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

Nonsense. As you say, zeal can be a quality concerning things other than religion. By saying zealotry is over done, are you saying the bad guys should only care a little bit from now on?

“Too much zeal guys. Slouch a little. Take your shoes off. At ease, and all that jazz.”

In a game with a story like World of Warcraft, people are going to believe in stuff to the point that they will kill for it. Or change time. Or Unmake the cosmos.

If you think having strong convictions and zeal is over done in a franchise about War, maybe you want World of Tepid Disagreementcraft, where Zealotry would be frowned upon - maybe even a negative stat.

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It can be a game about war without dialing up every threat to 20 and calling it a day. That’s the point I think Thad is making. You can have interesting villians without them being cray cray or overzealous about their ideals

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I don’t think zealotry is overdone in WoW. There’s so much in the setting to be zealous about. It might be better to start showcasing zealotry in different ways though. Something like the fire druids is interesting despite being kind of a dumb idea and I get similar vibes from the Shaman Night Elves in Dragonflight. The different things to be zealous about can also show a different how and why.

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