The Rogue Wishlist Thread

Classes Rogue
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I thought I would put this here to try and get some actual conversation started, a place to vent frustrations and nail up wishlists as we go into 10.1 as something of an afterthought, same as launch. Especially as the two “big” Rogue threads will be left forgotten in the PTR forums after this week.

Those of you who follow the Fix-Nightstalker-Cinematic-Universe may have noticed that those posts have stopped: Because I was suspended. I harbor no ill will towards Blizzard or those who flagged the particular day, and I ask that no one take it up in my stead.

Starting us off; My personal wishlist for Outlaw. I know some of these have very little or no chance of happening, but it’s a version of Outlaw - blended with some old elements of Combat - that I’d like to see some day, to at least give it a whirl to see if it’s nonsense or not. Some of these will be repeated from the PTR Outlaw thread. And keep in mind most of these are PvP-minded.

-Nix Slice & Dice, make it a baseline passive, replace it with Recuperate. Buff some of the lackluster SnD talents in the Outlaw tree accordingly or replace them with talents related to Recuperate. Replace Recuperator with something else.

-Mastery & RtB, make Count The Odds our mastery, replace the Count The Odds talent with something akin to the old weapon specialization talents that shift bonuses based on what weapon you wield. Give RtB buffs some pretty graphics on the UI.

-Unnerf Fan The Hammer, a change I know was unpopular with the PvE crowd. Our rotation has felt a bit hamstringed since, especially when running 7 combo points. I don’t think gimping our rotation is the way to go about being able to justify finishers hitting decently hard when other classes are slamming people.

-Bring back vanilla Ghostly Strike and Riposte. Ghostly Strike used to increase dodge, and I feel like if it was given a 30% dodge chance in addition to the 10% increased damage, it would be a more worthwhile pick. Riposte used to be an active ability you could press after a parry to deal decent damage and disarm. I can’t help but feel both of these would fit the brawler aesthetic while having old vanilla Rogue elements.

-Make Ambush hit hard, and give Ambush it’s positional clause back, even if it’s not a requirement. Great damage from behind for the PvP crowd, still able to smack bosses around for the PvE crowd.

-Killing Spree seriously hurts and gets CC immunity. It’s currently just something that you push when you’re “out of gas” and that never feels great, especially since it hits like a wet noodle and you can be CCed while doing it. Compare this to a Warrior’s Bladestorm.

-Dump Echoing Reprimand, bring back Bandit’s Guile, so that Outlaw has an actual thematic capstone on the Rogue tree rather than a SL gimmick.

-Make Blade Flurry a toggle again, and maybe make Fan of Knives baseline? Blade Flurry is yet another maintenance buff right now, but the initial damage on press is decent for catching predictable stealthies and Night Elves, hence wanting FoK if this were to happen. Let us turn it on and off when we need/don’t need it.

-Give GSW some graphics!

-Fix Nightstalker. (Done as of 30 minutes of this thread existing)

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My wishlist is simple: A clear design vision for each class.

What the heck is the vision today? Borrowed power buckshot.

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BIG NEWS!!!

" * Fixed an issue that prevented Nightstalker’s damage bonus from applying in its intended circumstances."

HAHAHAHAHA-

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You only had to be suspended for it :slight_smile:

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I die for the cause.

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We love our martyrs.

Also, all I read is: “This is the only strategy that works.”

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Big fan of all these. Nicely done

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I’d like outlaw dps to be more competitive with 3 button smashing classes considering the apm of the spec. I don’t ask for much. Just that. I guess overall DPS is fine, but a bit more burst would go a long way in mythics since we rely on a trinket.

WotLK style tricks might be nice as a utility. Shame it’s only a PvP talent.

Maybe a glyph to change pistol shot to a throwing knife / shuriken. That one shouldn’t be too much to ask…
Not like we actually have much in the way of glyphs available to us.

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Adding onto this:

-Make the blind and sap changes only apply in arena, so that sapcapping is still a thing.

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So much this. Combat was my favorite spec in the game. And I hate Outlaw with a passion.

Give us a combat path in the outlaw tree. Make it 5% less effective the roll the bones pistol shotting stupid pirate… whatever, that’d be fine since it was a simpler spec.

Blade flurry toggle would be the icing on the cake.

Until then I’ll just remember the good old days of my rogue, since this prolly wont ever happen for reasons…

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I didn’t play much rogue back in the day, but I loved Wrath-Cata combat, what little I played of it.

It’s kind of odd now though. With how many gimmicks are loaded into Sub & Sin, Outlaw feels closest to the rogues of old, which I don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing at this point.

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I was playing around in TTM a little and penciled in these ideas for Sin. In no particular order and with minimal consideration for tuning and/or flavor text…

  • Adjust Intent to Kill in a way that causes the CDR to incur when Shadowstep is used on any target suffering from any bleed, as opposed to targets suffering just from the player’s Garrote…

Intent to Kill

Shadowstep’s cooldown is reduced by 33% when used on a target afflicted by a bleed.

  • Swap the locations of Exsanguinate and Iron Wire in the spec tree, such that Iron Wire makes more sense as the +1 follow-up to Imp Garrote. Replace Exsang with the following to incentivize landing successful interrupts in both PvE and PvP.

Appetite for Violence (Formerly Exsanguinate)

Successful interrupts now increase the duration of your bleeds on the target by 6 seconds.

  • Replace Twist the Knife with the following poisons-only, veinrip-like ability tied to Poisoned Knife. Poisoned Knife has a steep energy cost but sits well enough out of a normal rotation to allow this kind of talent to give it a nice skill expression for an effect that (depending on tuning) would help a great deal.

Unsettling Catalyst (Formerly Twist the Knife)

Poisoned Knife causes targets within 8 yds of your primary target to suffer the remaining damage of your poisons at 50% reduced effectiveness and increases your Agility by 1% for 30 sec, for each consumed.

  • Please reskin stuff like Sepsis (and ER especially) to read more appropriately toward Rogue aesthetics…

Shiver Serum (formerly Sepsis)

Introduce a nerve agent to the target’s bloodstream, dealing (375.84% of Attack power) Nature damage over 10 sec and gaining 1 use of any Stealth ability. If the target survives its full duration, they suffer an additional (148.92% of Attack power) damage and you gain 1 additional use of any Stealth ability for 10 sec.

Cooldown reduced by 30 sec if Shiver Serum does not last its full duration.

Awards 1 combo point.

Restricted Stimulants (formerly Echoing Reprimand)

Boost your combat ability with a silvery injection, immediately dealing (110% of Attack power) Arcane damage to an enemy and Stimcharging a combo point for 45 sec.

Damaging finishing moves that consume the same number of combo points as your Stimcharge function as if they consumed 7 combo points.

and its +1 talents…

Saturated Dose (formerly Resounding Clarity)

Restricted Stimulants Stimcharges 2 additional combo points.

Volume Injection (formerly Reverberation)

Restricted Stimulants’ damage is increased by 75%.

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I have more, but this examples pretty well how I’d hope some of the design philosophy for Sin changes in the future. Let us control a little more of our immediate damage, as opposed to sending us multiple steps out in the future to overthink how cooldowns linearly thread into one another (or break completely if you botch them), and remove the parts of the current kit that speak more to the aesthetics of a past expansion, as opposed to our actual current class.

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I heavily disagree, sap and blind shouldn’t be touched. Why should my 2 min cd blind only last 5 seconds? Nobody is going to trinket a blind if you can’t even lead into a sap with it.

If they wanted to nerf blind they could’ve done it with other means, for example making it melee only range?

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Could it be successful interrupts and stuns? Without stuns the ability is only useful (for the most part) against casters. Unless shadow dance is talented, the only stun Sin is using will be Kidney which has a 20 second cooldown. It might also be worth considering simply adding this effect to Internal Bleeding

Im in favor of removing Sepsis entirely. With Shadow Dance available and Kingsbane having returned, Sepsis lost what little niche or flavor it had. The PK ability would be a fine replacement as a node alongside SBS. One for sustained cleave situations and the other primarily for aoe.

Why not attach it to FoK though? We had an ability like that in the past on the Legion artifact, only it was tuned to do a maximum of 20% of remaining poison damage.

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Though I miss Flagellation as Outlaw, Sepsis has been pretty fun on the Mickey Mouse HO-CTO build I’m currently running. A free ambush when out of steam, with no Dance or Audacity proc available.

And it’s affected by Heavy Hitter and Lethality, which I’ve also taken.

Fully agree with reskinning it though.

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Yeah, I’m actually a pretty big fan of the SBS/Sepsis node. I’m not sure about the design efficiency of its position, but the abilities themselves give nice build variation for folks that are looking for different things. Shadow Dance and Kingsbane do water down Sepsis a fair amount, but, in the event that you aren’t running a those talents, the SL covenant abilities are whatever-fine. Though, I do wish Doomblade applied a DoT on the back of SBS damage…

Regarding Appetite for Violence on Kick and Unsettling Catalyst on PK, I feel like there’s just a lot of unexplored frontier in tying potent effects to abilities that aren’t easily spammed. And that isn’t to say that there aren’t other abilities able to accomplish similar ends, but, primarily, especially considering the imminent Rogue Kick nerf, proper interrupts should be rewarded. And something like Poisoned Knife just has a lot of potential to actually honor its energy cost. Veinripper on FoK sounds cool. Having an opportunity to blast out that same effect (with caveats) from range or melee with PK sounds even better.

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Now that the 10.1 patch is about to drop, I’m going to move some of my ideas for outlaw from my ptr thread to here, and add in some additional thoughts as well. These are all pvp focused, though I did try to keep pve in mind as best I can. None of these suggestions should affect pve in a negative way (or at all).

  • Delete Slice and Dice - Echoing Bandit here. Just get rid of it. It costs energy, combo points, and a GCD, just to apply this lame maintenance buff.
  • Killing Spree - Buff the damage dramatically, take it off CDR (flat 2 min CD), add back in CC immunity. Compare to Bladestorm - Killing Spree is simply a worse version in every way.
  • Bandit’s Guile - I LOVE the idea of this being the “outlaw” capstone in the class tree instead of Echoing Reprimand. Everyone remembers red buff combat rogue from prior expansions. It’s iconic and fits outlaw’s brawler & ramp up theme perfectly.
  • Feint - I’d like to see 30% damage reduction feint return. Rogue, especially outlaw, really needs strong sustained durability to survive long enough to have a chance of landing a kill. Outlaw is almost purely sustained damage, and without burst we can generally only win in dampening or on mana. Sustained damage is generally very high in DF, so 30% reduction feint spam would be immensely helpful.
  • Mastery - I’ve seen lots of great ideas for a new mastery for outlaw. My favorites are Heavy Hitter (more stat = harder hitting builders) and Loaded Dice (more stat = higher chance for better RtB rolls). Our current mastery is both boring and bad.
  • Roll the Bones - Speaking of RtB, we have way too many talent points devoted to making RtB not feel bad. Roll the Bones itself (1), Sleight of Hand (1), Count the Odds (2), Loaded Dice (1), and Keep it Rolling (1). That is 6 total talent points devoted to RtB, all designed to reduce the RNG of RtB and the “feel bad” moments when you get horrible rolls. These talents should be consolidated. My suggestion: delete Sleight, reduce Count the Odds down to 1 point, bake Loaded Dice into AR, and keep Keep it Rolling as is.
  • Blind - I don’t understand what Blizzard is doing with Blind in pvp, but can outlaw get some kind of compensation for this hefty nerf at least? Outlaw having 1.5 min CD blind was iconic and a huge part of outlaw’s win condition in pvp. With blind being a 5 second duration, the Blinding Powder talent loses a ton of value. Can we get the CD of blind reduced further maybe (1 min perhaps)? Or at least get the 30 yd range back that we used to have in SL when talented into Blinding Powder? Just anything at all to make Blind not feel like a waste to press and talent for would be nice.
  • Stretch Goal - Ranged Stun Back? - Maybe this is too much, but an outlaw spec talent point that turns Kidney Shot into a ranged stun like old BtE used to be would be really cool. I do like Kidney Shot being a separate button, it’s just a shame that we lost another iconic “outlaw” thing.
  • UI Updates - Outlaw has possibly has the worst baseline UI elements in the game compared to other specs. Even after maining this spec for two years I find it almost impossible to play without Weakauras to help me be aware of and maintain the plethora of maintenance buffs/debuffs and procs I have (RtB buffs, Slice&Dice, Audacity procs, and so on). Why do none of these things have default UI indicators like other specs do?

I’d also like to add that the recent buff to combat stamina to be 15% increased HP in pvp combat is a very welcome change. It made the spec feel much better from the testing I did in duels. Maybe now outlaw will finally be able to brawl with the other melee again, like in SL. Hoping to see more outlaw love some time after the patch drops.

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Which spec is better for mythic plus? I am leveled as an outlaw but I am thinking about changing it to sub on the next patch.

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Looks at the many disgruntled Sin Rogues in PvE.

I think Sub is doing okay in mythics?

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New season coming : Who knows??

Outlaw is 10,000% my personal choice for M+ cause it’s FUN!
Sub probly better for very very high keys…but boring af! (again, imo.)

I easily pushed keys in the 20’s as Outlaw talenting KiR + Echoing reprimand cause I love how those talents feels in the rotation/theme of the spec.
It’s been a good 10% behind in dps, but still was most of the time still on par with most dps in high keys.
I dislike HO to a level I cant fathom to describe…there was no way I was gonna consider that talent.

All in all, the spec doesnt matter, simply go with what you like!
Sub s’better if you intend to push keys super super high, but any spec will get you 20’s :wink:

Good luck out there!

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