I think LFD changed the equation. While I believe it was a necessary change, once people became used to it dungeons went all wild West. I think the failure of Cataclysm was the nerfing of tank threat and healer mana in that new environment. In late Wrath the tank and healer could deal with the mechanics but relying on dps to CC proved the failure of the early Cat dungeons.
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/16249806
This was my character. Knights Templar was a ridiculously casual guild and we had trouble completing freaking BRD. Ronin was a small guild that could barely field Kara on a good night, and we ended up having to team up with guilds to even attempt early parts of Naxx and it wasn’t particularly successful.
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/135537339
This was my Cata toon. I hadn’t been in a serious raid guild till then.
But I guess none of this counts unless I somehow provide proof that literally everyone present agreed with me, because you can’t conceive that anyone willing to expend effort to learn and improve isn’t part of some sneering elitist hivemind.
Or…two days ago? Check my IO page and you’ll see a depleted +10 with a casual tank we were teaching.
You’re projecting harder than a theater.
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Okay, you’re not an elite, just a garden variety elitist.
Elitists typically want to remove all casual content and rewards and give much more content and rewards to elite players. They also don’t want the elites to have to pay extra to develop much more of that expensive content after casuals stop playing because there’s nothing for them to do in the game.
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Actually, it supports my point. There’s way too much in-between stuff and it throws off the linear path to gearing.
Without tier, there’s no reason for anyone to raid when they can do world quests, Warfronts and M+ to get equivalent gear.
There needs to be a linear path again, imo. There needs to be set ilevel limits where one type of content (M+) doesn’t trivialize another (raids).
Let M+ award gear that can get up to heroic raid ilevels-- but make it different gear. And bring back tier for raids. Don’t let world quests and world content give such high ilevels.
World content should reward lower than LFR. Heroic dungeons and LFR should reward lower than Normal. And so on.
I’m even all for bringing back .5 set bonuses and putting them in Mythic dungeons. Let M+ have its own type of gear that can get a higher ilevel, but don’t let it be the same as raid gear.
That’s my thought process. I enjoyed BC’s gearing method and I feel a linear system like it can be adapted to the content we have now.
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I’m not elitist in the least I just enjoy having challenging and rewarding content in the game. Please quit trying to infer that I am an elite person you don’t see me doing the inverse.
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This is ultimately what the solution needs to be. Stuff needs to drop gear with secondaries that actually help that content. Right now it’s just gutted so far and everyone has two that universally outperform everything else.
Back when I was tanking BC/Wrath I juggled softcaps but could stress different things depending on whether I knew avoidance or spike would be nastier. Picking up a piece was “I can use this with X Y and Z”, not “universal up/downgrade”. There’s not really any equivalent now.
I kind of wish Benthic bonuses were removed for the raid but more noticeable in overworld. Toys are cool. Invalidating entire tiers of gear isn’t.
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i think things like naz should give lower than normal raid gear but higher than lfr. that would be the sweet spot for me. my goal for the patch was to break 410 which i’ve done so now i am working on alts.
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I wonder if we can define progression in terms beyond gear. The mage tower was all about transmogs, you have mounts, gold, professions, and other non-gear ways of advancing your character but they gate a lot of content with gearing.
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it really can’t though. BC had 0 gear offered in world content. World content was done simply for rep to get access to heroic dungeons and raids* or unlock mounts and recipes. BC had 2.5 methods of gearing: heroic dungeons which got you halfway to anything decent between the badge gear and drops, pvp for gladiator gear and raiding. In 2.4 they added badges for higher ilvl gear and weapons, but even then you were running dungeons for the badges. World content of any kind simply wasn’t an option and the mythic dungeon system which, whilst repetitive is vastly more challenging at higher keystones than raiding can be, needs not be touched, it’s fine how it is, it’s not catch up gear. PvP vendors need to be brought back as well, because top pvpers shouldn’t be forced into weekly RNG for gearing, they should be able to buy the pieces they want when they reach the rank that unlocks it.
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people loved challenge modes and mage tower. people would probably enjoy more stuff like that.
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I see where you’re coming from with that, and I feel like that’s fine with Benthic. It could throw off that linear path, but at the same time, you can completely deck out your character in every slot, so it still makes going to that next tier an incentive.
It also means people wouldn’t feel forced to run LFR. Though Mythic dungeon gear should also fill that gap, so that people can go from regular Mythic dungeons to Normal raid. Or even to M+ and then Normal.
i also think mythic+ should either have some sort of lock out or not be so lucrative. it’s strange you can run 039485304958345 dungeons with zero lockout and end up as geared as a mythic raider. maybe if the higher the key the better the gear and don’t do such big jumps?
I dunno, I used those Ascendant’s Boots for a looong time lol. Those things were ridiculous.
I don’t even remember wtf they came from, but they were green that functioned at epic level.
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If you’re trying to remove casual content and rewards and give more content and rewards to elites, you’re an elitist.
Stop pretending you’re a “casual” who likes really hard content. You’re not.
What you are demanding would put the game into a death spiral, if BfA has not already done that.
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i think he’s just trying to upset people tbh. a lot of casuals want to still see some sort of progress but accept that we’ll never have the best things. i’d rather do WQ for upgrades and benthic is good too. i have raided a little bit and it was just too stressful.
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Look if you keep harassing me I’m going to ask you to just leave this thread alone. You keep posting nonsense and its getting old. I think this is either a troll account or you’re just posting to harass me and others. Please stop.
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So to be a casual the requirement is to like gear and stuff handed in a silver plate, noted, guess im not a casual either then lmao.
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That’s not true. The rep vendors had some pieces on them. So people had to run dailies. And Isle of Quel’danas had vendors, as well. Having people run things for badges was not a bad thing. It kept them running content.
And I didn’t say “exactly the same.” I said “it can be adapted.”
And I absolutely agree with this.
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Making it under time on a +12 key is a lot harder than grinding through a few bosses on heroic raids. For one you don’t have the luxury of dying your way through to the timer. brings another thing up, I wish they hadn’t done away with the no-wipe raid bonuses like they had in Wrath. Anyone with Immortal title or Grand Crusader is an undeniable great player. Anyone can die their way through everything now and still collect their heroic and mythic shinies.
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The problem with the current system is that M+ gear and World gear is too good. It’s not that M+ isn’t challenging. It’s that raiding should be the capstone of PvE content. It requires the most coordination and is the heart and soul of the game’s plot. Without raiding: WoW is just a diablo clone.
All of the PvE content in this game should be built around supporting the raid ideal. It is what gives value to the various systems. Without it being that important, it all just seems so pointless.
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