TL DR: Havoc defensives are terrible and haven’t been updated in half a decade which is why it’s behind all other DPS specs in terms of survivalbility.
Introduced 8 years ago
Last update on defensive cooldowns: 2020 Shadowlands (Glimpse and borrowed power (Necrolord shield)
Since then:
Necro shield removed due to end of Shadowlands
Glimpse damage reduction was halved in DF
Blur CD went from 43s to 1 min in DF
Passive magic reduction was systematically reduced from 22% to 5% across 3 expansions
Havoc is currently the squishiest DPS in the game, neck to neck with Balance Druid.
Why does Havoc underperform in Solo Shuffle and other rated Arena game modes like 3v3?
It isn’t even the damage.
It’s the lack of proper defensive cooldowns to trade to stay aggresive.
In an average Solo Shuffle match, which is between 1 to 3 minutes, Havoc can use Darkness and Netherwalk only ONCE, and oftentimes Blur once or twice.
Let’s compare this to specs with updated, polished defensive kits:
Hunters: 2 walls, Roar of Sacrifice, Feign Death. Those are 4 cooldowns you can cycle infinitely with whatever your healer has. In the final situation, you turtle. Micro CC of the class is also used to survive.
Windwalker: Karma, Port, Diffuse, Fortifying Brew. All 90 second cooldowns.Many more massive defensives. Fists of Fury parry.
Ret paladin: Do we need to even mention this one? Killing a Ret that has a healer these days takes longer than any other class excluding Mage.
Outlaw Rogue: Permanent Feint uptime talent, with 20% damage reduction to direct damage and 40% to AoE damage. So essentially a permanent Blur. Cloak and Evasion. Vanishes for days because they keep getting reset.
The list goes on.
Netherwalk and Darkness are outdated defensive cooldowns and create an unhealthy scenario for playing Havoc where you are “fine” for a few seconds while completely stopping attacking just to stand in a dark puddle or in nether.
Why will it get worse next patch?
0 Defensive updates
Removing the mastery damage modifier which will roughly dip about 30% of your overall damage, and not showing any signs of looking to compensate this
No new talents, literally taking a semi-useless Vengeance PvP talent and adding it for Havoc which will do nothing. The only positive is re-adding a previous Tierset for a slow as a talent.
And before some forum professor says “well just run away use your mobility to live”, just think for 2 moments what permanent running away because you have no CDs to trade would feel like for you if you were playing any melee in the game.
I’m not sure I agree with this. Havoc has better defensives than fury war, for example, and fury warrior is INSANE right now.
I see and agree with all the other options, though. Dh also does get murdered by rogues and ferals which are extremely prominent in the current meta.
I mean, that’s how rogues and hunters play every game, and DH really isn’t that different, tbh. Youre not a fdk/ret, so you can’t play like one. You DO need to hit-and-run more in btwn goes.
Dh is getting some sizeable buffs to compensate for any means necessary btw, class will possibly go back to haste as a result.
While I don’t play DH much (recently leveled one), the main issue I see is mobility and isolation. DH doesn’t have amazing CC avoidance currently as compared to a lot of specs and it doesn’t deal well with roots. Given the huge increase in snares as well, DH ends up having issue connecting despite their mobility.
I’m sure this changes some depending on the bracket you’re playing at, but what spec is giving you issues? Rogues? Warriors?
10% wall = trash
SoV affected by damp and ms = trash
LoH and divine shield are " good " now because you can chain them together on yourself but then… you threw away TWO of your biggest cds in one go so now you die next go.
Havoc is fine. You just cant fathom not being able to blur air and have your stuoid high damage and leech keep you up against everything thrown at you.
I think ret and dh have pretty comparable defensive kits actually.
Ret has wall+sov vs blur.
Bubble vs nether
Loh vs dark
Hoj+rep/blind vs chaos nova/fel erupt/incap/fear sigil
Bop, sac, sanc, freedom vs reverse+ms as team utility.
Ret has stronger, bigger defensives and team utility in exchange for fewer cc options and no ms… this is really an apples to oranges comparison, but I do think that ret is more survivable than dk; namely due to the reason that ret isn’t as punished by stuns as dh is.
Only it doesn’t. Fury has access passive defensives which Havoc does not. When a class doesn’t have too many on-use defensives, it has passives instead.
Trained as Fury? Swap to D stance, take -15% dmg forever, press Ignore Pain, press your 30% hp heal. Bladestorm provides immunity to CC like Glimpse does, but Bladestorm doesn’t make you go back and lose uptime.
The formula for melee DPS is very simple. Have the tools to stay in and continue applying pressure - good. Obviously a lot of classes will run out of cooldowns and have to kite SOMETIMES. But those classes have sub-2 minute def CDs that also allow them to continue being aggresive.
The only exceptions are Sub rogue, Feral and Survival hunter, where you can apply Hit and Run indefinitely.
There are no DH “goes”. You are not a Rogue or Feral. You pop Meta and you have to stay in until it runs out, as this is your effective bursting window. Obviously with the current state of this spec being forced to run is what you are, and after Meta runs out, you’re useless for half a minute or more till you get your next 6 second Eye Beam window.
It’s very bad and outdated design.
A simple fix to making the class stop dying to air is to simply retain the Glimpse damage reduction for a few seconds after landing. Let’s say 4-5 seconds for example
I think that some melee DO have a bruiser role like warrior or dk where they press W. Other classes are more hit-and-run, and I think that DH falls under that umbrella. DH has several defensives to rotate through (more if you count fly as well). I think DH more closely lines up with a class like sin rogue or feral where it can do great damage by staying in, but will also die if it isn’t made to run.
I don’t agree with that, I just think that DH has been able to do EVERYTHING for the last 2 expansions and press W like a fury warrior while having the mobility and cc of a rogue/feral but with better burst.
If anything, I think DH is more fair than it ever has been, but maybe could have a change to use some defensive while stunned?
The difference is DH don’t have any ability to just press a button and chunk heal like DK or Warrior. If we aren’t cranking DPS we aren’t self healing and the problem with cranking dps is it’s all window based. One CC and it’s derailed for 30-45 seconds.
Besides, leech has been nerfed into obscurity anyway. We aren’t actually self healing that much.
We need stronger defenses in order to survive at higher ratings.
Glimpse to work as OP laid out and maybe VR break roots.
Blur should be stronger or shorter CD.
Nether is good, but why can you slow/root if immune?
Maybe blade dance have the talent choices combined so it can damage reduce and healing debuff.
I’m of the opinion that darkness needs massive reimagining too.
Obviously needs to either be much stronger or have CD like 2 mins, and it needs to be 3x the size or follow the DH.
DH running is the same as a Warrior running. There is no offhealing available, no self-peeling ranged CC (outside of an incap maybe)?
If a Feral runs away, his damage continues via bleeds, moonfires. Instant roots from range. Bear form, frenzy, even a pillar - regrowth, cyclone, u name it.
If a Rogue runs away, he can get a restealth, stun an entire team, has a potion to heal off a bit, etc. Assa rogues can choose to Garrote and run away as much as they want and retain most damage uptime.
Excluding all those obvious facts, no melee DPSes even really run anymore. Because they have Cds to trade.
Not to mention Blur has become a largely useless CD vs so many things, dying through it is the norm and you can often watch R1 DH players pressing Blur high and still needing to netherwalk
A huge overhaul is in order, it’s literally been 5 years since the last tweaking for a Defensive CD for Havoc. No other spec outside of Druid has had this.
Respectfully, I don’t think that I do. DH absolutely CAN stay in and THRASH during meta and blur, and has tools like glimpse/fly to get away and avoid cc.
sort of, but DH also has better mobility to escape than probably any other class. Fel rush can be used defensively just as well as offensively.
Sure. Different classes are different.
This isn’t true, though. DH need to chains and kite fury warriors, paladins will need to freedom and run or line. Even warriors have to line sometimes or they’ll die.
I really don’t feel like this is true.
DH has actually gotten defensive nerfs over the last 3 expansions BECAUSE it’s been too tanky and has been able to press W with impunity, which is very unhealthy for the game BECAUSE of how much mobilty and utility it has. This is just the first time in the last 2 expansions where DH has had to use things defensively.
I don’t know man. I play my dh and feel like the defensives are pretty good. Esp if you play nelf with meld you can really live for a while. I also like how they reworked the tree so you can get netherwalk a lot easier. Felt like a massive trade off before to get it. Plus you can choose to trade of MS for the BD mitigation.
