I like to check up on the writers sometimes on Twitter. It’s a wonderful thing. Sometimes theit interactions with eachother are great.
I remember one time Danuser shared his Amazon recommendations, which were all erotic books in the… ahem… “submissive” genre. I don’t know if he realised ads appear based upon your internet activity. But it answered all my answers perfectly on his attitude with Sylvanas.
Yeah, I would wager that Sylvanas hear is still more of a Danuser problem, just with more Golden characteristics popping up in these most recent cutscenes. When you have “step on my genitals mommy” Steve the lead narrative designer, who went so far as to make a cocky SUPER self-insert to be with his fictional waifu, even Golden’s “Goldenisms” will have trouble overcoming that.
If Sylvanas gets her redemption, there’s nothing we can do about it anyway. But I think this will get a mixed reaction among the players, and it will tend to create an even more toxic atmosphere, and from then on it’s clear that no race is safe from anything, even from being beaten down by the other faction, to the point of genocide.
I do feel like you continue to forget she was aiming for as large of casualties on both sides as possible? Regardless, a full fledged redemption of her also absolutely will reaffirm that “The Horde is Nothing” as well. Which, man, I suppose is what Blizz has been reinforcing these last 10+ years.
God this is such a mess! You can NOT validate her behavior. Having her have a little “redemption” arc in SLs was always reasonably on the table, the question was always what the outcome would be. However, to give her that little arc AND validate her actions would be a thematic nightmare. You have to prove her wrong, have her suffer from that reality, THEN have her act in accordance to that reality to whatever end. If she falls to the sway of a teenager’s Talk-No-Jutsu here, it will feel like we’re skipping that important middle step.
That’s because Golden is in charge of creating cinematics and cutscenes alongside Gregory. Which is the reason why some characters are acting so different in cinematics compared to interactions ingame sometimes.
I’m not forgetting anything here, I’m just saying that this scale goes to the extreme, if it was misunderstood, I’m sorry. But the message of my statement is correct and only says how far the escalation scale then goes, to the very end, if you will. I did not want to start another “who has it worse” discussion, but that there is no plot armor for the races, and that at any time, to any people, from then on something like this can happen, and that the villain could be redeemed afterwards.
It’s a mess, either blizzard will back them up and say any means is fine as long as it has the right goal in mind, or they will say that no matter what you do, the system always wins in the end, you can’t win, you can try to fight back but you do exactly what you were ultimately predicted to do, get as far as you were allowed and then you fail.
Either one: ‘Everything is fate’ or a ‘genocide and betrayal are totally fine as long as there are the right motives’.
I’m quite scared that her redemption either contains her being right, or that her genocide gets waved away like it’s nothing.
Meanwhile Arthas is sitting in hell while Garrosh has been turned into an anima cow since his fall in Draenor, and it doesn’t look like they’re close to getting a redemption. Infact, I think we’ll release Garrosh and he will be a Gul’dan 2.
But if she does not get redemption, it is not necessarily better, because then it is proven: Free will is only an illusion, everything is fixed, predetermined. The purpose, the destiny, fate, whatever you call it, ultimately it is always fulfilled, always, and there is no escape and no exception.
You can swim as hard as you want against the tide, you cannot win this battle.
To be honest, no race other than the NEs had any real plot armor prior to BfA. Nearly every single other PC race other than Dwarves have gone through near extinction level events within the last 38 years. Several, in the case of humans. The NEs are absolutely not special in that regards; and they still are benefitting from a LOT of plot armor for their characters if nothing else. When Blizz goes so far as to make a new character to kill off in the same book they were introduced, you know your reps in this very hero centric game are safe.
They could go the route of Sylvanas actually not being talked down by young Brad Pitt here. We know Anduin wont Die-Die no matter what, and if she believes she’s lacking in freedom to choose so much … then despite what Anduin said, she has no real power … she has no real choice. Then down the road have her being discarded by the Jailor, after its been revealed that it wasn’t the Arbiter that threw her into the Maw … but him. That her Primes were always in his service, and he fed her a convenient lie to get her to move in directions convenient for him. Y’know, the very same BS she subjected both the Forsaken and Horde to?
THEN you can get her to move in some “redemptive” way. I do not see why, with just how many story cutscenes were getting in 9.0 alone, we feel the need to skip all of those essential middle steps if our intent is to give her something akin to “redemptive”? She can’t have her ideology validated here. You break that ideology to pieces, and then she does something in response to that.
And I honestly don’t see a problem with this. The constant battle against fate is such a tiresome trope at this point, that going against it would be quite refreshing actually.
The night elves was nearly extinct after the 3rd war. thats their story, i don´t know what you mean, i mean, no race was more often almost wiped out:
After the Sundering - First time.
After the Sartyr War
After the 3rd war
after the fourth war.
Tell me a race who had this problem more often than the night elf lore, maybe trolls. Sometimes I really have the feeling that things are deliberately talked down.
i´m not so sure, i mean, It wasn’t my decision, I wouldn’t have allowed WOT as lead developer, but if I had to make that decision, I would have killed Malfurion, out of consistency and consequence. In the end, consistency and consequence is important, something fundamental when you’re writing a story.
But it would be a double-edged sword for me, because it goes both ways.
And how is this going to end, Sylvanas cleans up the mess she caused herself, then she may have atoned for the Horde…but the mess with the night elves would still be there!
i mean, i have no clue to get a good solution for both sides, either way, one will get the short stick
That’s not what I’m saying. I don’t think she can get “redeemed”, I’m just talking about getting her to the starting point needed to do something “redemptive”. Sylvanas lacks sufficient motivation to truly deter from her current course; and nightly sleepovers with an 19 year old should not suffice for that. Thus, since her motives that keeps her on her course are intimately tied to her twisted world view, you need a catalyst jarring enough to shatter that world view. To prove it wrong. Because, only then, will she have sufficient motive and freedom to move in ways counter to it.
There are any number of outcomes for her after that point, but even getting her to it at least requires that bare minimum. And while I would love nothing more than for Tyrande to claim Sylvie’s head by the end of this, is it really so wrong of me to want some sort of thematic ctharsis as a Horde player? After two rounds of villain batting without any regards to Faction Identity, and over a decade of deep neglect outside of those battings? That somehow as a Horde player I was never allowed even that?
I’d actually love to give you a great story, something to make you feel better, but ultimately Sylvanas is really this wound that I fear will remain permanent. I don’t know why blizz wanted this permanent wound in their community so badly, even if Sylvanas is dead it won’t end, maybe calm it down but it won’t end
i mean, if you give Tyrande the retribution, the Horde will come up short, if the Horde gets this story, the Alliance will come up short. No matter which way, someone will always get/get the short end of the stick
That’s what I mean by that. I don’t think with these high expectations and feelings that are in play here that any side will be satisfied with half-hearted stuff, but we probably won’t get any more.
Honestly, opportunities for Horde Ctharsis are irrelevant to Sylvanas. That character, even now, has never represented even her own Forsaken well. That doesn’t change because of some internal turmoil on the precipice of some final step towards her dastardly plan. Thrall and Baine simply being built up to be powerful enough to tangibly help Tyrande claim Sylvie’s head would be sufficient enough participation for us on that front; since it seems unlikely we will be able to screw her out of her prize she turned us into expendable tools for in a more thematic way. Let the Alliance get their vengeance, that’s fine.
You wanna give the Horde something positive? Our Faction Identity and Character Roster has been broken down to such an absurd degree, we’re essentially back to square one WC3 founding of the Horde levels here. So, despite it not being the select roster I would have preferred to get it, take the select roster we have of Thrall, Baine, and Vol’jin and by the end of this expac give them story arcs to get them to the places of development and strength they need to be to best serve the Horde and their people. All of these reps need a LOT of work, and have a LOT of deficits to overcome … so lets just start with them.
That would be all I’d ask for really as a Horde fan. Get these three mopey losers where they need to be so we can move onto the monumental task of even attempting to build up and fix all the others. Also, it would be nice if they threw us a bone and let us rescue Saurfang from the Maw eventually. I know he was a contentious character by the end, but he at least deserves to be with Drannosh.
It shouldn’t really have to take any help for the Night Warrior to annihilate out of existence Sylvanas to say the least, against the Jailer, yes, I’m with you there, but against Sylvanas? That would be…well, I don’t know, it would end up with the Night Warrior being further described as the “most unnecessary power upgrade in history”, if they’re going to do this story, it’s going to have to be worth the price.
I personally see it even more sinister, I say they have arrived at the beginning of WC3, they have to prove again and this time there seems to be no Hyjal moment that will allow them an honour salvation, it will be a long road I fear, not a short one.
but i´m fully on board, gave the Horde their development on characters, and the alliance their development on their faction as a whole and their people.
vol’jin will be a Loa, if he return to azeroth, he ´s a trollgod, not a normal mortal anymore, together with bwonsamdi two cool and impactfull god Characters for the horde, with one a little bit unpredictable , but the other 100% horde.
Thrall get his power back, thrall cata were on the same lvl as malfurion, so no worry, he have his mojo now, he need only a srs talk with his mother…again, i mean…yeah, again…wod - flashback…AGAIN!! AGAIIIIN! AGAIIIIN! Boah, Thrall, whats wrong with you, you little Cry-Baby! AGAIN!
and baine, give baine a real purpose in the horde, a roll he have to fullfill, that would be my solution.
Vol’Jin as new loa of the darkspears, bwonsamdi as loa for the Zandalari, both of them are fully on board with the horde. i mean, the alliance have not such characters in their Backpack
You are truly a disturbed individual. I think you need psychiatric services.
Also, so happy to see Sylvanas redeemed! She deserves it, she did nothing wrong!
This essentially. The Horde needs character development, while the Alliance needs faction development. That’s not to say that the Horde council system also doesn’t need work, but as a “council” it is only as impactful as the sum of its parts. Thus, working to improve and develop the individual members will in turn improve the council. And since the Alliance has a very well developed character roster, they as a faction need to start their own soul searching journey as a Faction.
You know what’s sad: the alliance has had a council since WOW started, it never really got story, never, it was always just a background thing, we don’t even know who stands for what in the council, that says enough how important or unimportant blizz really sees the alliance council or the faction.
right now, the alliance is a default-route, a 0.0.0.0/0 route, its easy to lets people forgive, if this people have no real “position”.
And I don’t know what else can be given to the Alliance now, apart from empty words, without making every character who stands against Anduin automatically evil…the Alliance has landed in a dead alley as far as its own faction is concerned, there is no good way out any more without portraying all characters who could bring development as failures.If Anduin is presented as the default right, it is always measured against him, and anyone who does not fit to his ideal or integrity is already against peace and factually wrong, because peace is a high and important good.
However, one then expects all the peoples of the alliance to forgive, everything, no matter what, and we come back to the point that this is easy when these peoples do not actually represent any position at all, or really come into their own within the alliance.
its easier to develope a bunch of new characters and starts building them up, compared to give a full faction a meaningfull story as a whole.
PS: Moreover, the Alliance fans are usually never fans of their entire faction, but only of individual member states, the Alliance fan community seems much more decentralised to me, they don’t want centralism at all, they rather want independence and the story should take care of [race] in their area. The alliance is more like NATO, you just work together where you have to, but otherwise you live more side by side.
Fair enough, but while the Horde playerbase seems to be really into the Horde as a whole … its more that they’re more “into” the diversity of the Faction as whole. They have certain races they prefer, but since part of the draw of the faction is the fact that there is that massive spectrum of cultures and faces … generally all of them are enjoyed. Thus, the Warchief position actually increasingly became less functional, more arbitrary, and more nostalgia maintained as the Horde continued to become more diverse. Ironic.
That being said, it is sort of interesting the Alliance. On a basic level, excluding the NEs, the “High King” role isn’t hyper detrimental. There is enough shared cultural norms, and a enough of a lack of competition for resources, to make that sort of position sort of functionally “work” to represent the majority. The major issue is WHO is representing it atm. However, on a player level … Alliance players do come off as more individually selective about what races they prefer. Its less Faction Driven, and more Racial Driven, and those shared cultural norms that keep the Alliance a cohesive unit are actually working as a detriment to the enjoyment of those individual races. The HK being a symbol of that homogeny. Strange that…
In fact, that is the big problem in my eyes. Blizzard writes the faction that doesn’t want it, that perceived precisely this distinction and this racial difference as important, as always working as a council…as a homogenous piece of mush…and the faction with one - one, singular - leader as versatile.
Of course, there was a huge backlash and Blizz’s answer to this was “High King”, which was also rejected because it only confirmed the same problem again:
If you want to make the alliance happy, let the alliance be what it is: a military alliance of powerful kingdoms that work together - on a purely military level - but are not really united politically.
Unity is exactly what has destroyed the Alliance thematically…and for many years now. and damaged the memberstates of the alliance aswell, take from them their pride and make them to “SW -Loyalists”
Diversity was what was always important to the Alliance - since WC2 - since the Alliance existed - it actually broke later, but taking that theme away from them damaged the Alliance.
The Alliance was by default more powerful than the Horde, but not politically united, which in turn weakened them and made them work together more inefficiently. To compensate, the Horde started out weaker and as the underdog, but united and well matched, what make them stronger and equal to the alliance inefficientisness, that was the WOW Classic scenario.