The problem with Raid Content

My guild finally killed Heroic Sylvanas for AotC. And to be fair, it was a good fight. Personally I should have switched from Kyrian back to Night Fae to make phase 2 a bit easier, but I’m happy to take the win and move on.

Here’s where I have a problem: You just finish the fight, either sit through or watch the cut scene that you’ve probably seen before on normal (or heroic if you’re a mythic raider), you open the chest and what do you get? 73 gold and some now completely useless Stygian Embers.

I’m fine with not getting loot every boss kill, I think that there’s too much throwaway loot in the game anyway. But … I just killed the final boss of the expansion, and I’d honestly have gotten more gold for less effort doing a world quest. 73 gold would barely cover the repairs incurred on one bad attempt, let alone make a dent in what people spend on consumeables doing progression. Clearly the old canon of “Risk vs Reward” has gone out the window at some point in favor of “We’re basically taxing you for AotC”. The gear doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t drop or if it does it’ll be obsolete in 9.2 anyway. Maybe you’ll use the transmog but more likely you have a set that you prefer by now. The legendary? We had 2 hunters, neither of us got the bow.

But anyway, just my thoughts. I’d be interested to see what others impressions are.

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I’ve never understood why killing bosses give so little gold. I shouldn’t have to do professions or buy a token to get rich. That’s just my opinion.

Bosses should be dropping 8-10 pieces.

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Gotta keep people on the gear treadmill,in oder to pad out the mau.

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Grats on your kill. It sucks you didn’t get loot on your first kill, but gearing is kind of attrition, and the subsequent kills should be easier. I never got anything from my only Mythic SLG kill, which was a pretty agonizing fight.

But generally you’ll gear out from multiple kills. Between my guild and the Vault, I’ve had access to every drop (except the mount /cry) in 5 kills.

The only problem with raid content is that raid in WoW has no content.

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Same boat with M+, you spend much more gold on the consumables and repairs than you make LOL! Unless you sell carries!

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Just in general. Look at old content where you are “rewarded” with disabled grey items or currency that no longer has any use. I think they think they’re “training” us to play for no rewards whatever. Look at legion dungeons, have they fixed those? For weeks they were giving players no loot. I’ve abandoned the content. It’s bad enough you can’t get a decent weapon in Legion content, but now they expect you to fast forward without gear? They are delusional.

Sure it doesn’t

I don’t know about that? I think we had a plate and a leather piece drop. And for the number of people we had (around 14 IIRC), that’s acceptable. About 1 drop per 5 people is what you’d expect.

I guess. But I would trade actual content and a good story in a heartbeat for a treadmill grindfest. By the time you’ve killed the end boss, why bother?

Thanks. But here’s the thing: We might do the Sylvanas fight once more to get a rogue who wasn’t there AotC? And then we’re effectively done with it. Noone wants to do SoD anymore and even if they did, let’s be honest 98% of the guild are raid loggers anyway.

I would say it’s worse than that? You could remove players from the Sylvanas encounter and things would turn out exactly the same? We make absolutely no difference in the end. We may as well not even be there. We don’t beat Sylvanas in a story sense? She just gets bored and teleports away. We don’t stop Zovaal. We don’t foil his plans. We don’t rescue Anduin. It’s just game-ified, scripted, and forced failure IMHO.

At least with M+ you can console yourself with the fact that you’re getting a death elemental recolor mount for doing comparable difficulty content? Also the gear helps with raid progression? And it takes a lot less effort as far as progression goes? I think all of our folks had KSM within a month of 9.1.5 launch but it’s taken us this long to herd cats to get AotC? People having lives and all that.

I remember trying to get the last few cloak transmogs and the last mount from Legion Garrison Invasions, and I don’t know about the Horde version but Alliance’s is so bugged that soloing them you do good to get past Silver.

Not sure what you’re getting at. If you’re trying to create a different context by quoting a bunch of sentence fragments or trying to read things into what I typed, then have fun with that I guess? I confess I might just be missing your point, so if that’s the case please feel free to explain?

I think you’re confusing wod and Legion. Garrisons were wod, garrison invasions were wod. Legion had class halls and demon invasions that gave world quest loot that was neither special nor rare.

You’re right.

Problem with content is that: We actually SHOULD not make a difference, but we must “think” we do. As for good storytelling is the story that is told all the same to anyone, but means something intimate and relatable to each one.

That is what we say when we say WoW is not a story driven RPG.

I can cite a good example in Mass Effect.
Ordinarily, and to most people, Mass Effect is a “masterpiece” of storytelling, in which multiple choices and multiple threads flow through an open story that you make as you go by the choices you make. And one could agree with that if not looking “outside”. As if you invest and immerse yourself, YOUR story in Mass Effect is YOUR STORY. And you can feel that if you are not presented with what I will say next. If not, you watch a YouTube video of another person playing, and you think their story is different.

However, when you get outside the “protagonist seat” and analyze the story from a “algorithm” perspective, it is actually a very simple story that follows the linear tale. Then you start to notice some stuff.
You can romance with any character, the story and the dialogues will remain mostly the same, unless they are in private you and the other character, and the broader story flow happen the same way no matter who you get intimate with, or who dies, who you not friends with, or whoever survive provided that enough and specific people survive. And if they dont, it doesnt really CHANGE the outcome, rather it blocks the outcome.

When you notice that you will see that the only story that actually fulfill mass effect trilogy is specific romances, specific decisions, specific actions. Otherwise you start to notice characters talking about things that did not happened as if they did, or disjoint temporal mind theory, which means, someone will act as if they know something before they could actually know something, and act as if they dont when they should have.

Well, the excellence of Mass Effect is not the ability to give you freedom, but the ability to make you think you have. Ability that WoW story tellers lack. And that influences the exact thing you mention: Feeling you matter.

People dont like this example, and I dont really like to spoil things, so I will be reticent:
In FF you always have had some points you choose what to say, and that changes little to nothing in the story as a whole, but for your personal relatedness and immersion, it changes many things.
However in Endwalker they really outdone themselves to the point you really can get a personal feeling of participation as your decisions dont really change the story, but they change how you feel about it. You feel that you are in control of your character in the story even if you are not in control of the story.
That reminds me of my days as PnP RPG narrator. It was good, and people liked my campaigns for that. But I couldnt bear the lack of being the player, and it is not the same, it should not be the same. Narrator MUST have a deep knowledge of the story and be able to make it drive the player to want to do what the narrator want them to do. You should not force or direct your player to do something. You need to make a “irresistible force” that compels the player to do what you want because they come to want it too.

That is where story in wow fails. They are not able to make what they want done to be the desire of those who are interested in the story, and lack also the foresight of making rewards drive that desire in those who are not interested in the story.

And that is what is rotting wow. It does RPG poorly, and tries to beat it with other game elements that it does poorly too. So it cant be better in the RPG sector, and much less in the MMO sector.

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It has content but you are not encouraged to do it. Everything else is an after-thought with this game director. There are no overarching achievements for playing the game. You are not rewarded in actually collecting the points, you don’t get mounts, vanity items, permanent boons (+10% exp every 10k) and so on.

These developers these days…

So much this! ^

I love all of these things and would love to see them be the focus instead of grind-y mythics raiding or competetive content. Just collecting nice things from simple dungeon, raid and world bosses and stuffs. :owl: :raccoon: :purple_heart: :blue_heart: :otter: :bat: :koala: :rabbit2: :turkey: :bug: :butterfly: :snail: :whale: :rose: :rosette: :hibiscus: :blossom: :tulip:

Zovaal

So now your guild knows how to do it. Go in there next week and down her again.

People put too much emphasis on single kills.

Oh. Right.

edit: Maybe it’s my age or maybe I just emotionally “noped out” when the cutscene started. I totally forgot we have another “content patch” coming.

Congratulations on the kill.
I agree that something needs to be done.

Personally I would see raids get easier, I think they’re way over tuned for most players. If they were easier you’d not feel so bad about not getting loot.

But i’m also down for guaranteed final boss loot too.

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To be honest raiding has been trash in WoW since MoP or even Cata, even though Cata raids were boring at least the loot system back then (even in Wotlk) . Legion raiding would have been just as bad if Leggos didn’t have a chance to drop in raids.

It’s disappointing not getting loot…but if everyone got everything they wanted on the first kill, they wouldn’t come back. People like to cynically talk about user metrics and garbage like that, but even in games without a subscription, if there’s no incentive or replayability, there would be no players very quickly.

Besides, the actual last boss of the expansion has had a guaranteed reward for AotC since WoD. Zovaal probably won’t be any different. Scratch that, I think Garrosh even had the guaranteed heirloom weapons.