The problem with Havoc Demon hunter in PvP

PVP Arenas
1

I will skip ahead from all the “either broken or weak” topics, cause that has become pretty obvious throughout the years.

Speaking from the perspective of somebody who “mains” DH and managed to squeeze Gladiator this season, I instantly stopped playing the class right after.

The defensive design of this class is absolutely horrible. Talks of a rework happened a few months back and I was happy that maybe we get something good, and to be fair the talents and damage on PTR are pretty good.

But what makes this class so unfun and unpopular in PvP compared to many other specs is how brutally clunky the defensive kit is. You are quite literally a target dummy the moment Blur is on CD, you have nothing to trade and still have uptime, unlike every single other DPS spec in the game. Darkness is a terribly designed ability that forces the most mobile spec to stand still and rely on RNG. Netherwalk is a poor man’s Bubble that doesn’t even allow you to do damage or anything during it.

So instead of giving this class more damage, some weird 1 second shield on Blade Dance, can we just get 1 meaningful new button as a defensive button? At least to be a choice node with Netherwalk?

In comparison, classes like Windwalker, Arms, Ret, Rogue basically have infinite answers to continue their uptime with. Some of which also have on-demand self healing.

I truly love the idea of the spec but after playing it for years I truly despise being a target dummy for literally everybody once blur is on cd for 1 whole minute. Please keep the damage toned but instead provide a meaningful defensive for this spec.

As a general comparison I will lay out some differences between Havoc and other melees.

Arms warrior defensive / defensive utility count:

Ignore Pain 10S cd
Disarm
Parry
On demand 30% heal
Spell reflect (x2 with a talent)
Pre-War banner
Permanent Defensive stance if necessary
Plate armor which reduces physical dmg by a rough margin of 18% more forever compared to a DH

Windwalker:

Disarm
Port
Dampen harm
Karma
Fortifying Brew
Ring of Peace
On-demand Expel Harm doing a decent heal
Diffuse magic

And then you compare this to a class that has:

Blur
Darkness (let’s stand still and pray to RNG, 5 min CD)
Netherwalk (do nothing for 6 seconds and hope you get healed)
Glimpse (gimmicky 1-2 second 35% wall that does absolutely nothing if you’re being continuously trained down)

So let’s say you were forced to press those 3 buttons early. Well, now you’re a target dummy for a full minute till Blur returns. As I play a lot of alts, if I see a DH I just tend to tunnelvision the guy and he will just eventually flop, because even his healer will run out of healing and CDs. It’s just how it is. Anybody who has actually played the spec can confirm the same. Ad the difference between effort and reward for this spec is just too high for it to be worth playing, if people realize how easy you are to kill.

7 Likes
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i didnt know we were talking about frost dk in this thread

its 11

this is a worse defensive than blur btw

something something pre glimpse

take a fat 15% damage penalty for this

the forums tell me that 99% of the game is magical damage and dhs get defensive stance vs magic damage for free so u should be a real winner rn king

i think different classes are different and dh is a pretty good melee and gonna be pretty good next patch

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Why do DHs say glimpse is bad but then MVQ is dashing all around the arena avoiding every single go and burst window and never dying like an F22 raptor fighter jet.

14 Likes
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Chances are he’s a botter so that doesn’t count

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DH’s are no longer the winged chosen ones for Blizzard. Your old news and peaked like a 42-year-old dude still wearing his High School Varsity Jacket.

It’s now the era of the flying freak Geckos. And somehow its worse than 9x Gushing Wound DH’s cleaving me in BFA.

9 Likes
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I want to live in the world you live in.

In my world, DHs are already strong, and going to be S++ tier in 10.2, meanwhile poor Devastation hasn’t been given a bone all expansion, languishing in C tier.

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Sorry, my hatred for Aug Evokers blinds me. If you’re asking me to join forces with you to hate DHs even more, the answer is obviously, “yes”.

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Indeed. DH’s zugzug design added nothing to the game and they never should’ve been added. We’d already just gotten a speedy leather wearer that had more depth and finesse in Monk.

Then they add one that’s literally impossible to kite because they gap close rotationally, deals extreme damage bypassing armor, stole spriest’s passive vampiric leech class fantasy, and has rotational iframes.

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concur with the lack of dh sympathy in this thread

essence frags and leech not mentioned but expel harm makes the list? sus

edit: good post tho +1

10

Mobility is a good defensive…

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Dh is a lot like ferals. If you’re bad at the spec you will think it’s terrible defensively. You need to know how to properly kite and avoid damage when you know your the kill target. You already have potentially the best 60 second cd in the game in blur along with glimpse which if used properly can be the best button in the entire game. Then you also have 2 major cd’s that can generally just end a go on their own.
If you are in a situations where you blow nether, dark and blur first go that’s entirely on you for not trading properly. Also even if you do you’ll still have access to glimpse. Which is only a 25 second cd, so you’ll always have it if you need it.
You also have reverse which when paired with glimpse is extremely strong. Completely mitigating a go. Or just strong on it’s own in certain situations.

Also the current version of dh benefits the turbo kitting playstyle you need into certain matchups. Since your only really kill windows are usually on eye beam goes.

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The author took Glad this season, but the duelists are obliged to come in and explain to him how to play, lmao.
I agree completely, the defensive abilities of DH are terrible, this is something that needs to be reworked in the first place, and not buff damage (he will still be nerfed). It’s impossible to even roughly calculate how much they will protect you, it’s completely random.

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Dh defense is really good when used optimally.

just because they can be cheesed by sub rogues doesn’t mean they are bad :joy:

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Only thing I wish we had was more utility for our team…

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15

Kinda disingenuous here.

You left out a bunch of passive defenses like 16% perma less magic damage taken which is huge and +6% hp, and 10% leach 20% while in demon form as well as Fodder proc heals (and cc break) and collective anguish. Also left out Rain From Above which is basically a bubble vs melees that lets you nuke them at the same time. Reverse Magic as well to clear dots/cc.

Also, Glimpse is INSANELY good if you know when/how to use it. Immunity to all CC is what you take it for, not so much the 35% dr (it also removes disarm)

1 Like
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Nerfed to 5% next patch

This is nerfed baseline in arena for half a year so far

Fodder is removed next patch

Won’t be taken ever because you will be forced to play Elysian Decree

basically a UI-bug spell that takes a PvP talent, makes you a sitting duck and does absolutely nothing if somebody decides to line of sight you

Nobody uses Reverse magic for themselves, it’s used to remove CC from your healer. It used to only be considered a defensive into Affliction warlock + more dot spec comps, but now that you take dmg when doing it it’s pretty much suicidal

Glimpse is insanely overrated. Yes, u can make flashy plays to outplay a Rogue, Warrior or Feral and immune their initial stun, but that doesn’t matter most of the time anyway. Why not? Because those classes have more stuns, so when you Glimpse a Storm bolt which is a fairly easy thing to do, you just get Shockwaved instead. You Glimpse a Rake stun, you get Bashed when you land etc.

And yet he played like a god in the Shuffle tournament but lost anyway because they trained him EVERY SINGLE GAME, because they know he has no buttons to press compared to the other 3 dpses. And this happens most of the time in general for the class. THIS is the problem. The ONLY other melee who is forced to kite for extended periods of time and run away instead of having a button to press is Feral Druid, but since it’s a bleed class it doesn’t matter that much and he can tank kicks or fake for Cyclones to get his next go which nulifies the annoying “run” factor.

It’s not about Rogues deleting you, Rogues can be outplayed. It’s about brainless physical PvE dmg specs like MM/BM hunter, Warriors and some other specs like Windwalker, Feral just deleting you by afk tunneling you. It’s boring.

Once again, I don’t want the class to be immortal and zug you down. I just want to have buttons to trade for situations. Which DH does not have. Darkness and Netherwalk are literally PvE defensives to avoid 1 shot boss mechanics and stand still or do nothing. In what world does it make sense the most mobile melee to have such lackluster buttons

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No Jim, your eyes are wide open

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Where are the frost dks of yesteryear?

I guess being Walmart and going 2 for 1 is bad but idk man. Sounds like your team is up at that point if the warrior had to burn all of his cc because you glimpsed a bolt.

Aren’t you supposed to use your mobility and kite while the brainless warrior apes press ignore pain? If you want to play warrior just play warrior. Maybe dh needs a defensive buff with fodder being gone but that’s a discussion for 2 weeks from now.

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What exactly are you doing by using your mobility kiting melees half the game? Yes you are forced to do it, but how is that enjoyable in any way or a good viable way of playing a melee?

You ain’t a caster. No damage is going to happen by you getting distance. It’s just boring to not have any actual CD to trade in order to have uptime except Blur. Being forced off for extended periods of time because you have 0 armor and take 200k aimed shots / RSK / Mortal strikes is not a fun experience at all. Specs like Ret and Warrior can brush off being consistently hit easily while doing the same amount of damage as any DH does.

Most classes have mini-pops on less than 1 minute. And you are spamming Blur, but it’s on CD of course because you had to use it for the first big pop. You look at your action bar, another 20ish seconds remaining, then you gotta kite like you’re some Warlock being ran down by 2 warriors

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DHs can be tankier brawlers if we remove all their mobility, okay? Sounds like you don’t want it anyway.