It needn’t be a wholesale retcon - and that’s the thing about NPC assertions: they are not facts. They reflect that NPC’s understanding, their biases, their perspective and may include blind spots.
Also - I’m just going to highlight that Drahliana is absolutely correct in being concerned about what gets reflected in the game world itself versus about what’s merely stated.
If you think a story event has to happen in game to be a canon lore development, I would disagree. And so would Blizzard. They make many books and short stories that have canon events that are not in the video game. That is an absurd position to hold.
The Night Elves are canonically gathered at Hyjal. It is a lore development involving Hyjal and the Night Elves. That is a simple fact.
I am not much of an activist when it comes to the lore that is given. Once Blizzard lays it out, I go with it. It is their story. Actively cheering retcons is something I just don’t often do.
The Draenei retcon was great. Blizzard did a good thing by changing their mind. And then I go with it.
I see your point - that it could just be a mistaken NPC who doesn’t have all the info. But that cheapens what happened. I don’t think people such as myself want things to be worse - but once they happen, let’s build on it instead of undoing it.
It’s not a question of whether it’s canon, in view of the first point, it’s a question of whether the audience actually believes it. We on a lore forum can agree that it’s canon while acknowledging that differences in presentation leave a lot of people confused and/or with a feeling of cognitive dissonance in cases where they do know their lore.
Oh yeah they are, I barely come across any Horde while out with Warmode on. They are almost non existent and when they do show up they are generally jumped on by the overwhelming alliance numbers.
Only time I’ve seen serious numbers was in Nazjtar where the horde would use cross realm raids to bring in the numbers. even then it was almost 3 full raid groups to match what the alliance was bringing.
We know it NOW That Zandalar was not send to the bottom of the sea. But in MoP we were told it was based on evidence of One NPC.
If it was so easy for them to do U-turn on Zandalari and Shatterspear then as easily it can be Done for Drakkari. We have good Clontext and opportiunity.
Everyone is returning to Northrend, and Talanji want to rebuild troll prominence in the world. It Would be a good place to start in there.
Personally, I’m okay with cheapening past events if it leads to interesting current content. I mean, Zandalar reappearing could be said to have cheapened their “tragedy” in MoP as well. Does it bother me? Not in the least, because I’d rather have the zone of Zandalar than a weighty tragedy of why it’s not there.
And I see nobody lamenting that belves pretty much got everything back on Silver plate (and with plethora of armor plotting) and I don’t see People holding it against them that it cheapens what they went through.
They were meant to be so wiped out that they had to leave everything behind and move to Outland. Then TBC happened and Silverspoon is back and they’re holding very well on their on apparently!
In game… there has been no development relative to Elvish presence on Hyjal since Cata.
I see those complaints alot. Maybe because you are a low level Alt from a Euro server, and are new here. People often say that the Blood Elves were cool at the start of BC but just turned into High Elves on the Red Team being saved by the Alliance (Velen).
I mean, people complain about almost everything. I don’t believe you typed that with a straight face.
I don’t think that’s the root of the complaint here.
People talk about the fall of Silvermoon, but there was a marked difference between that tragedy and every single one that we’ve seen in game. It’s a background event to the MMO, and it’s certainly not something that Blizzard allowed people to play in the shoes of the losing party. The 90% figure may largely be treated as a joke at this point because people don’t feel that loss. So what do they feel instead?
If you ask me - and I do have a Blood Elf alt that I leveled to max, or at least what was max at the time (got to max without deaths in fact, which was part of a larger challenge to see if I could do that) - so I do have at least some idea of what I’m talking about. Sure, you quest through the ruined parts of Silvermoon, but the overwhelming feeling is that of pride in the spite of a past that’s largely told and not experienced. It’s a nation on the rise, and it can stand proud. It does stand proud.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that of course - I think it’s a great direction for them - but it illustrates that the past tragedy is, well, in the past. You’re not grappling with those feelings right now, and you’ve never had to. It’s like you bought the dip of a once hot stock and are riding it up again. You’re not getting wiped out in the middle of a financial crisis, and because you couldn’t buy that stock before Blood Elves were an MMO option, you never had that experience.
Troll players don’t have that luxury. They watched that stock tank again and again and again. They once were isolated from it, now they’re not - and that feeling absolutely sucks.
Oh? and I have a Troll that is Max Level now. I consider him my main. He’s always my first to Max level. I played a Troll in Vanilla. So I also have an idea of what I am talking about.
Here we go, pretending your feeling is universal.
As a Troll Player, I disagree. We started out as side kicks to the Orcs. We didn’t even have our own starting zone. Just a little town to buy our mounts. We didn’t start at some zenith and then fell - like, say, the Night Elves. The Player Experience of Trolls, especially Darkspear, was of a people cast out of their homes. (We are lumping all Trolls together, and I am fine with that for this discussion.)
I think seeing another Troll Tribe go through what the Drakkari did is a cool side note to their story as a Race. We had a tribe that was devouring their Loa while some of them were making deals with the Scourge, and they were all but wiped out. Shadows Rising helped build on that theme of Loa and Trolls needing each other, and that was great. The idea that a tribe fell as they turned on their loa is a cautionary tale to other Trolls.
As I said earlier, I would rather see Troll activity in Stranglethorn, or Arathi, or the Hinterlands. I don’t see much reason to bring back a wiped out tribe for a zone that might not get much action or screen time. As a Troll Player, I think it is an important part of their history as a people, and I am not eager to see it changed.
I mean, out of the 4 or 5 people discussing what Troll Players feel, I am actually playing a Troll enough to be Max Level currently. It is rather comical to be lectured about how Troll Players feel.
Now I don’t think you have to be max level to care about a race. But it at least would qualify me to speak on what a Player of that race might like with enough interest in the race to actually play it.
(This is Cursewords Troll Druid btw. I post with him some times on Troll topics)
It wasn’t an attempt at a lecture. I more felt that Cursewords wasn’t understanding the concern. That said, I do feel that you didn’t have the same luxury that Blood Elf players had and were made to in some way suffer the losses being discussed - even if there was a level of detachment - and I say this after having engaged with troll-player complaints for years.
… In particular with Scryll from years ago. We were rivals back in the day, but he had a point that I didn’t appreciate at the time about how a troll player might identify with the losses that other tribes were suffering - and this was well before the Zandalari were playable.
I will take your word for how Night Elf Players feel, because you mention it, and I don’t play them with any care other than they are the only Druid who can wear shoes. (If you look at Mojozilla’s outfit, I at least found footware that covers his toes). You can “feel” Hyjal doesn’t count as a lore development all you want - but that is just a feeling. And that ignores the current canon.
I don’t need someone dictating to me what Troll Players feel, when I am a Troll Player, and I don’t have those feelings, and I am fine with the current canon. I am not using my feelings to ignore canon events… my feelings align with the canon.
We disagree on what Troll Players want, as we disagree on much. But it is ludicrous to tell me I feel a certain way because I play a certain race based on some other people.
As a Troll Player, I like the gravity of a fallen tribe being in our recent history. It means we better… be on our toes.
I could write an entire article on the decline of the humans story in Warcraft. They had they started with the most and have almost everything. They have had the largest decline than any other race in the game.
Yet even then it would probably pale to the hyperbole Kyalin has written. the fact that the Night elves have had such losses goes to show how much they have.
Yes it sucks to lose ground in the story but that is what is in the story. We aren’t fighting for night elf rights here we are just waiting for blizzard to tell us the rest of the story.
Yet I hope all races that have got far less screen time than the Night elves and Humans get more of a focus before they start looking back to these two races. Lets get some Gnome, Worgen and Dwarven content. Lets take back the Gnomes city and help them restore it or gilneas for the worgen. Lets explore the Dwarves connection with the titans and history, Lets make these races relevant again.
The same could be said on the Horde side with the Darkspear, Goblins and bloodelves.
At the same time, you yourself are replying to people who at least appear to be troll players and do express some concern on this - and as I mentioned before - I spent a great deal of time arguing with someone who would probably fall on their side of things, and it’s not hard to see where they’re coming from.
@ Badmaa: Show me the decline that humans experienced in World of Warcraft. That’s seventeen years of history, shouldn’t be difficult.
Edit: The idea of restoring things for classically ignored races I agree with, but I of course dispute your apparent argument that we can’t resolve their issues and others at the same time. Not that I feel that this resource argument is much more than a distraction in the first place.
Warcraft 1 - Stormwind ends up destroyed and its people killed brutally by the Horde. Remnants flee to Lordearon.
Warcraft 2 - Pinnacle of humans as the multiple human kingdoms elves and dwarves come together and defeat the Horde. Lordearon is attacked but it is repelled.
Warcraft 3 - The decline begins, multiple human kingdoms have Left the Alliance and the faction is fractured, The scourge starts showing up across lordearon. Ends up Lordearon is destroyed and multiple towns.
Frozen Throne - Follows Kaelthas however we see the Alliance is in ruins and multiple Human nations have fallen. Ends up with the Last of the Humans resisting the scourge are wiped out.
Horde Rexxar Campaign - Kultiras attacks the Horde but are defeated by them, Theramore is attacked and the loses Daelin proudmoore.
Vanilla - We see Stormwind has been rebuilt and Theramore as the two last bastions. All other Nations are either destroyed or possessed by the enemy.
BC- nothing much of Note. However all their keeps are damaged or destroyed.
WOTLK - The alliance human forces are attacked from behind by the Horde at the wrathgate. We lose Bolvar to an attack by the Forsaken, rather than facing the architect we face a random alchemist and are teleported out of the city.
Cata - Multiple human keeps/towns are destroyed. Stormwind has a whole district destroyed, Westfall’s is on fire, Menthil keep is under water and Both Gilneas and south shore are wiped out by the forsaken. Human archbishop turns out to be serving old gods.
MOP- Theramore is destroyed by the Horde.
WOD - Nethergarde keep is destroyed.
Legion - Darkshire is wiped out by legion followers. Varian and tirion die during broken shore. Humans are left with a child in charge.
BFA - Yay Kultiras is back is attacked by the horde in multiple places, loses its fleet.
Shadowlands - Boy king is now possessed by the big bad.
World of Warcraft. World. Delete 1-4.
The people in the lost corner of Stormwind. Then they lost Varian. Riots in Westfall and Mirkwood? Loss of influence of the nobility? Um … That’s all that was described on the ru-forums.
I forgot about Bolotin.
That corner of Stormwind belonged to the night elves. This is the loss of the night elves.
And what was meant by people - people as a species or people as a playable race (Stormgraders)?
Fuh, sort of figured out the editions. Now it looks “decent”.
Warcraft 1-3 are not part of World of Warcraft, and they’re a different medium. Humans weren’t a playable race choice in an MMO - a medium focused intently on character identity versus the detached focus of an RTS. You needed to pay attention to the prompt on this one, because about half of your post is dismissible on this basis.
Regarding the rest.
In general, it would seem that you’re looking at losses out of context to the humans’ ever-increasing presence and dominance over the Alliance as a whole, and deliberately leaving out that expansion of influence and continued dominance - in direct contrast to the other races in the Alliance, which have either been ignored wholesale, or destroyed wholesale so that humans emerge as the only competent power within the Alliance.
How was it there? A bird that has a scale, but has filed it down so that it can only measure the bad?
Badmaa, you can look for “good” for the night elves.
Territory edit.