Zandalar was SINKING as of MoP, but it never fully sunk. Nazmir’s expansion was a byproduct of that event. The Plaguelands are being actively healed by the Argents and Cenarian Circle. Stromgarde has been rebuilt true. The Sunwell was purified through the sacrifice of a Naaru. In NONE of these instances were the population losses retconned. Which is what we are discussing. Zul’Drak likely could be rebuilt eventually. But the Drakkari are canonically extinct. The Plague and Scourge took their tolls.
So you can rebuild the location, but the people and culture are gone.
Unless at a future date we clarify that the information given by the NPC was just their opinion and that there was a secret group of unknown escapees who are now repopulating the area.
More ridiculous retcons have happened - like the Nightborne.
Sure we can. We can retcon everything if you want to get down to it. And population numbers never matter. Tho, in the long LONG history of Blizz writing Trolls … they have never been so lucky as to have a dead Tribe come back. And the Drakkari aren’t the only ones pushed to that “essentially extinct” status, just the biggest. There have been plenty of smaller ones at or nearing that breaking point.
I guess my bigger question here has to do with whether it’s a good idea to just wipe out the Drakkari. I understand that Blizzard’s usual MO is wrecking fun, and therefore destroying cultures, but why SHOULD we do this?
I don’t see it as a good or bad thing. I just see it as a “thing”. The Drakkari Empire was ground zero for a festering mass that was the Scourge in Northrend. They spent years being forced to essentially combat it alone, and they are not the only Northrend Race that was eradicated due to it. The Storm Giants went the same way. As did the Nerubian. That continent is essentially a Graveyard of reanimated corpses the further north you go. Any of these peoples that did not side with the Scourge and betray the rest, are gone.
Thus, again. I don’t think “wiping them out” is a good or bad thing in the sense of the setting. Its just a thing. One that Blizz has apparently committed to. One big loss and tragedy among thousands of years worth of nothing but loss and tragedy for the Troll people.
Well, I’m going to have to press on this point then. Why lock it in? Why assert that we can’t change this? Shouldn’t our guiding idea be “what would be fun”?
I guess because that’s what Blizz has already? That’s why.
Blizz does not throw around the verbage “near extinct” very often in game. In the long history of WoW, I’ve only heard it applied specifically to two groups. The culture/political group of the High Elves, and in the literal sense for the Drakkari. And as cool as Zul’Drak is (and as much as I would like to see it rebuilt, and not under constant darkened skies) … its not to the point where I’d care about retconning their story.
Personally, the Forest Troll Tribes, Gurubashi, Farraki, Zandalari, and Darkspear are all far more priorities for me to find solutions and prosperity for than the one Tribe Blizz saw fit to write into extinction. This is the same reason I don’t demand dead Orc or Tauren Tribes/Clans back, and am adamantly opposed to bringing back dead characters (outside of Jin, who’s had that event deliberately written as part of his journey).
" Come to mock? Come to laugh at the speaker for a fallen empire?
Any troll of Zul’Drak not claimed by da Scourge was broken by dem. In there death throws, my people slew our loa, stealing the power of dese gods to wield against the Scourge, and then they died as well.
I be here, now, as little more than a pet for these Zandalari. An oddity dey pull out to show dere children somethin’ exotic.
Blizz saw fit to write this into the game. Which means I’m not “Gotta Catchem All” enough to try to dispute that with them. There are enough living Trolls still on the cusp of a similar fate to worry about in this setting. I also do realize that cultures and peoples even rise and fall, and thus I am accepting that this is what happened to the Drakkari. They are “effectively extinct”. There may be small vestiges of survivors, but it is as Malak’orak says, its a Dead Empire. Lordaeron and Alterac are in similar boats as Human Kingdoms for me.
You can rebuild these locations physically (maybe) … but reclaiming the culture and people that once resided there might not even be possible. Something new is far more likely to rise from the ruins of the old.
I am coming from the perspective of how I feel things ought to be in the game - we “ought” to establish X.
You are coming at me with what has been done.
These are entirely separate conversations. It does not follow that just because something IS the case that it OUGHT TO BE the case. This is, again, a logical fallacy, so I would request that you reply with something other than a regurgitation of the status quo, and with something instead that demonstrates why we should continue to have that status quo.
Again, what would be the issue with clarifying that a group of refugees survived, that Malak’orak didn’t have complete information, and that they’re rebuilding Zul’Drak?
No, the NPC said that Zandalar SUNK (entierly) during Cataclysm. They later changed their stance on twitter. I was there because I was devastaded by the information and I wanted any info of them retconning that.
They change it entierly because they realized what a WASTE it would be to sink the most ancient kingdom on Azeroth like that.
According to Text in Kings Rest Nazmir was always a swamp. Lorelol.
I never said it wasn’t. But you realize that Trolls have druids and priests and paladins too, right? And they could summon their Loa for aid additionally, like Torcali or now reborn Sethrallis who is known to have positive (revitalizing) influence on the zone she is in.
They were. Zandalari were prime example. The Shatterspear were a prime exmaple, they were considered to be successfully exterminated bar a few survivors! They made out of Zandalar being on the bottom of the sea “Yeaa prophet exaggerated”.
If they Undid Zandalar being on the bottom on the sea based on speech from one NPC then as easily can Zul’Drak be retconned. (“Yeaa he was misinformed”)
If they Undid Shatterspears, so they can do as easily do the same with Drakkari.
You need 500 people to recreate successfully population ( Drakkari that went with Zandalari during MoP should still be around) . And if we take even Frostmane immigrants then it’s entierly possible.
So were Stromgard humans, they were also nothing more but a memory. But with money pouring from Stormwind, they took it back.
So Belves were considered close to exinct, they had to leave their lands to Outland to find a new future.
But Nope it was retconned entierly, same with Sunwell. And hilariously, belves keep on diving and dividing, it’s a wonder they can spare any people left.
If such a big measures were done in favor of humans and elves, I see no reason why not do the same favor to the nation that bravely stood against the Scourge. A Nation that player helped sabotage in favor of the scourge!
Reclamation of Zul’Drak would be a great phased content for troll players, Alliance could get equivalent in taking back Gilneas.
Step by step they would take each portion of the zone. It would give sense of accomplishment and finally some positive progression for two races that were dragged through the mud.
Meanwhile Nelves and undead could have their “build your own capitol” content where you gather resources from the world and contribute to build new hub.
But ok, looks like you’re perfectly fine with extermination offscreen. Troll should just lie down and let others walk over them.
“Zandalar has been severely crippled by the Cataclysm causing King Rastakhan’s palace to list to one side, the spine of the land to split in two, a fissure to open in the floor of the forum, and the region of the island called Nazmir as well as other areas of the island to begin sinking beneath the waves. But though Zandalar was indeed damaged, it did not sink as Zul predicted. While Zul and the Golden Fleet left Zandalar, those that stayed behind endured and rebuilt. This also explains the desperate measures the Zandalari have taken, by issuing the call to scattered troll populations of Azeroth as well as their wish to reunite with the mogu and claim Pandaria as their own.”
So, nope! Zandalar was predicted by Zul to sink, but it never did. But large parts of Naz’mir were sunk beneath as a result. And the Shatterspear were never eradicated. Their leadership was killed by the Alliance, causing the tribe to disband. With much of its remnants finding their way into the Horde. In neither of these instances are population losses retconned.
Some of them are, and I’ve had to push back on their comments. Some of them are also people who feel that the game has to have “consequences”, but don’t actually have investment in what the “consequences” are being inflicted upon.
There has been no development relative to Elvish presence on Hyjal since Cata. It, as with TBC, Legion, and WoD, have sat in perm stasis ever since, lore dead ends.
Um… the Nelves are there now. It became their fallback point after Teldrassil burned. You can read Shadows Rising if you want to see how wrong you are. There has been development regarding Night Elves and Hyjal.
But I wanted to comment on Droite’s point.
I lean towards Droite’s perspective on this. When I try to discuss the story and what I would like to see happen, I try to stay within the framework of what Blizzard has laid out. I don’t go off on whole sale retcons. I think Droite is of the same mind.
It isn’t that we prefer what has occured, but that it has occured according to lore. And we are sort of discussing Blizzard’s lore, not our own head canon dreams of what should be.
We have to be grounded in something and have some sort of starting point, and the lore Blizzard has is the most common and solid ground to start.