This doesn’t mean rogues are undertuned, it means the other specs are overtuned.
I agree with what you are saying.
I dont think blizzard wants this to be our phase. Just look at the way things were designed. Blizzard never wants to make things easy for us. We avoid the nerf bat this way. Avoiding the radar is everything for a rogue.
We should just wait for our opportunity. Gnomer isnt it. I really only care about 60+ personally.
The old story that applies here is about the old bull and the young bull shaded up and out of the flies on a hill. A bunch of heifers graze into the meadow below and the young bull says “Let’s run down and breed a couple of heifers.” The old bull gets up, stretches and says “Let’s walk down and breed them all.”
Something needs to be done for the future. I think P2 is probably a lost cause and it was lost just as soon as they figured out Rogue DPS was going to be poor. Want to know how I know they knew before it dropped? There is ZERO reason to change the energy cost of Mutilate to 40 energy. It was already very strong at 60 energy. They changed it to 40 because it is the only way to give rogues a moderately competitive build for pve content. They know it is overpowered at 40. They created an entire rune to drop the energy cost for backstab and ambush to 40 and specifically called out the rune doesn’t impact Mutilate. They panicked because they have no idea how to tune the class and that is sad.
Sadly, I don’t anticipate changes coming for the class at all. I think Blizzard slapped the runes together with limited thought or insight into how each of the runes would actually work and be used by the class.
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Wow so the person you just invited leaves rhe group and you immediately disband the entirety of the group? Yah you got bigger issues at hand then.
Rogues job is to gank level 15s in low level contested zones not raid
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we only wear leather so they say we need thick skins. 
make it a them issue instead of a me issue. be a stoic rogue. you write your own narrative.
Well, I see you’re on Living Flame. If you were on Crusader Strike, I’d invite you to run with me. Just got my pal to 40 yesterday, and am looking to set up another group. Probably do a scheduled guild run with this guy.
+1
Rogues are fine, it’s the boss’s armor and resistances that are the problem.
Are you trolling? that’s the message you get when the last person in your group leaves. The point I was making is that people won’t even let you make a group as a rogue, they will just immediately leave.
friggen woosh buddy
Cool.
I’ve been surprised at how much fun I’ve been having with the classes that I play, but I’ve also seen people complain about those very classes!
idk though… I sort of feel like P2 in some ways is an answer to some of the things people complained about in P1, but the changes aren’t relevant in P2 to the “issues” of P1, and while sometimes it makes sense to make some tuning changes/adjustments (of course we can always debate as to how this “should” work), sometimes it feels like maybe it’s OK for things to be how they are for a bit.
I do feel like in P2, rogues have gone from being quite desired (1 per raid) in P1 for kicks, to meh, who cares if we have one or not, but we’ll probably still have 1 (1 per raid). I know if I were playing a rogue this phase, I’d most likely be tanking, but I don’t play a rogue, and never have, mostly because I like being able to tank, and rogues haven’t typically appealed to me.
I suppose a lot of people who prefer playing rogue might also not prefer to tank, so being in a position of having middle-of-the-pack DPS, and not being a desirable to stack class, while being able to fulfil multiple roles may be a bit of an oddball place that rogue players find themselves in for P2 Raid content.
As someone who’s tried to rogue tank, it’s a miserable experience, only really do well as an offtank for certain fights, since for the most part you can’t hold threat against anyone when trying to multi-target, tickle-toss hits for about as much as pre-nerf swipe and has a weaker threat modifier to boot.
Sure. I wonder what you’re comparing this to though. I hear or read a lot of negative experience comments that seem to be coming from the point of view of Wrath/Retail, and not from Classic.
How does this compare to the Warrior tanking experience, for example?
There was another thread not too long ago about threat mechanics and how much of a thing they “should” be, which I think is an interesting thing to contemplate, at least, and I have some opinions, though I don’t think there’s an objectively correct answer here.
The OP of that other thread started out with an idea that maybe there shouldn’t be a fight for threat:
And later considered that maybe
Some of the new tank mechanics introduced in SoD might be a little too Retail-y for some preferences, and that raises the question of whether maybe they should be toned down, or the other more traditional tanks have their threat toned up.
Personally, I lean towards threat being a thing, closer to Classic Era, but I also think it’s kind of nice to have classes that maybe play more like Retail with regards to threat for those who prefer it. That way, there are choices. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
The P2 runes for rogues don’t really answer much. They marginally improve tanking and they help pvp. They really didn’t do much of anything for pve. Maybe P3 will come with runes that improve pve. Looking at the data mined stuff, I don’t expect that they will scale the rogues enough to move the needle. Especially if they move Mutilate back to 60 energy which I fully expect them to do.
Part of this is the raid itself. It almost requires 6 ranged (that are actually ranged, not including something like a Lock tank that isn’t really “ranged”) to succeed. You don’t have to have 6, but it is definitely the minimum for an ideal raid comp this go round. That leaves 4 slots and there are better uses for those slots in many / most cases.
That’s not really my issue with the class though. Move to 20 player raids and fights that aren’t as armor heavy probably moves the needle for rogue DPS. My issue is how completely pigeon holed the class is while ALSO being undesirable. Tank? Mutilate. DPS? Mutilate. PVP? Mutilate. It is the first time I have played the class in a classic setting where there aren’t at least a couple ways to play it effectively.
That’s the thing. “Switch to tanking” isn’t really a slam dunk statement either. If you are horde side, Shamans are just flat out better at it. So are Locks.
Overall, my issue with the class is more that Blizzard clearly doesn’t really have a direction for it. If they want to force rogues to tank, they need to ACTUALLY provide the mitigation and AOE threat generation necessary to make that happen. Dunno. The class changes as a whole have been fundamentally underwhelming and the class itself very much feels like an afterthought. It honestly feels like they gave real thought to the runes for other classes (I have a number of alts so this isn’t just me reading them). There is nothing about the current rogue class that makes me think they gave that same level of attention to the class.
Give rogues a savage roar if their pve damage is struggling. Mutilate gives plenty of combo points, and it will have little effect in pvp.
Rogues are fine, stop drinking the kool-aid, the rogues spit in it.
Yeah rogues are literally in the worst spot even worse than warriors
At least you’re good at pvp
Mutilate should weaken the enemy and cause all dagger damage to the target by 30%
It’s almost like a lot of the bosses have poison resistance reducing additional sources of Rogue damage as well including Envenom and theat Rogue damage is absolutely fine and theh are suffering from a similar to fate to Feral in that they receive double mitigation sources off the bosses.
And is it super easy to find people who play Shamans and Warlocks who want to tank? On Alliance, at least from the point of view of being in the raid, it’s not really obvious if any tank is better or worse (with the exception so far from my experience, that warriors seems to struggle immensely with threat) among tanks.
I don’t think anyone really cares that much about tanks, other than whether they can hold threat, and perhaps they have dialed up caster threat way too much, and could tone it down to actual classic levels. That might be one way to tune things, at least.
Well, I know I certainly don’t feel excited when “yet another rogue” whispers me to invite to raid, or 3 guildies sign up for a raid on their rogues, so I won’t try to make the argument that Rogues are “doing great right now.” But, I’m curious where you feel they should be, and why?
They still seem to be played more than some classes like Priests (interestingly, considering how strong priests are, both for Healing and Damage/PVE/PVP). Do they have to be something we need more of?
IDK, and then why do people seem to put so much emphasis on raid performance (even in general, but especially) when we’re at level 40, during leveling content for a few more weeks.
I feel that. It’s kind of hard to know what to play and/or what to prepare for when you don’t know what to expect.
I tend to look at something like
And think, this is probably more or less where we’re headed, but who knows! Maybe things will change each phase, and maybe SoD will be different. Maybe Feral will become the number 1 DPS by 50% (but only at one arbitrarily chosen percentile) and everyone else will be upset!
The numbers are in and I need each of you to send me 20g