The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

Another one for "why was that even changed?" I'm currently a dirty casual in a guild that barely exists, so the impact on me is zero, but this is insane.
10/08/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Cheheals
We have been told our issue will be addressed, however we were also told we created this thread in the WRONG forum. We've been given a tip by Itzali, let's heed his advice! :)
So, when we have issues with implementations, we should be posting in the Bug Report forums? I thought that forum was for Bug Reports only?

If that's the case, should we post suggestions there too?

With all due respect though, I'm not going to start reposting the same thing hundreds of other Guild Leaders, Officers, and members have stated here. They have their feedback, 89 pages of feedback, almost 1,800 replies of feedback. They know what the issue is.

This thread is the last bastion of Guild Permissions UI. If we're to start posting our suggestions in the Bug Reports forums, I'll start doing that from now on. As of now though, no point in leaving this thread.
As stated by someone in the growing Void Elf ladies' twirl and jump thread (in the Bug Report forum), they hardly ever respond to posts in that forum, so, not sure why they'd suggest that.

Also, this isn't a bug. It's a patched-in change. The suggestion to move or restart all of this in a forum that is historically only read and not a place of back-and-forth seems disingenuous at worst, or an example of bad communication between Blizzer...erers at best...?
In accordance with remaining On-Topic, I will stay here and continue to advocate for the reversion of the As-Of-Now unusable "Is Officer" box to the previous (and infinitely more effective for our guild's needs) version of granular rank permissions. I am even willing to compromise on the deal, accepting a "Simplified" Guild Control Scheme that preserves the current implementation and an "Advanced" Guild Control Scheme which restores the previous functionality.

I am willing to move my secondary Guild Improvement suggestions to another thread, but I will not move from this thread until the core matter is addressed:

The previous granular guild rank controls must be restored.
Forget starting a new thread that is BS! If they cannot read this thread and see that there is a HUGE PROBLEM WITH GUILD CONTROLS then they shouldnt be in this business. This is lousy customer service. The lack of response is shameful. I will not go away and will not post other threads, they dont control the parameters WE DO! GUILDS ARE THE SOUL OF WOW AND THIS CHANGE IS DESTROYING THEM! WHY DOSN'T BLIZZ CARE?!
10/09/2018 09:00 AMPosted by Dlaciabia
Also, this isn't a bug. It's a patched-in change.


^^This^^

As I stated this morning:

The information Blizzard ASKED us for is HERE.

It's been here for months and almost 90 pages.

This is no bug but a "fix" for something that was not broken.

Blizzard broke ("fixed") our guilds without asking us if we wanted the fix or even so much as telling us beforehand that they were going to break (fix) it.

They know we are here.

Perhaps they wish to divide up those of us who refuse to go away and stop posting.

I for one will not be moved.

Blizzard says "jump!" by telling us we need to start a new thread after all these months and all that effort.

By actually starting a new thread you are asking them "how high?"
This isn’t a bug.. a report on the bug forum, will get a “broken as designed, please provide feedback in GD” response.

This is the correct forum for feedback.
Time for Real Talk. No songs, no jokes (except one), no snark.

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. TL;DR will be at bottom!

RSBB (The acronym for our guild since there are bigger and better Rising Sun's out there) was formed by my wife and I in late Vanilla as a direct response to the alienation we had felt from the server playerbase. I had quit the guild I had built with my RL friends out of their growing elitism and everywhere we landed, nothing ever felt "the same". At one point, I was going to quit WoW altogether. One day, my wife got it in her mind that "look, if any idiot can create and run a guild, why can't we make one and do better?" And thus, the seeds of RSBB were planted. It took us two weeks to get the sigs, and we started out as an extremely small, noob-friendly guild who had no hope of even touching UBRS 15, let alone MC and above. We accepted this, while continuing to hope through our slow recruiting efforts that we would become something bigger.

When TBC released, our active playerbase had grown to around 15 accounts and our nightly active roster averaged 11 people. Slowly, our guild creed had spread around the server: Join us and play how YOU want. No Mods, No Mandatory Attendance, No DKP, Just Fun. We had several officers with one goal in mind: Get to Kara. 1 month passed and we began to bleed. We geared people...but then they left. Officers began to disengage, fall silent, and eventually...revolt.

1/3 of our active base splintered into a new guild (Renegade Elites...btw where tf are you guys now? Jeet? Where are you, you spineless coward who had to be taught how to play by Grahams and I? Huh? Effing Clown). Our trust in people had been obliterated. We had been kicked down to square one with no immediate solution. But then...

We convinced 4 of our RL friends to sign up for WoW. They leveled like crazy and met us at 70 in no time. And a select group of names I will never forget stepped up to lead RSBB into a golden age: Maxs, Coragar, Diviara, Kulldar, Ainvar, Decay, Verystinky, Evelastina, and Nicon. Leftovers who were considered unwanted by the splinter guild. Also, a fat tub of lard boomkin helped too I guess. I think his name is Deathcrotch? ;) From the ashes of our collapse, we went on to outpace, and overtake the splinter guild and solidify a position as one of the top casual guilds on the server WITHOUT sacrificing our core principles. Our raid nights were legendary spectacles of fun banter, epic accidental wipes, and good laughs about how fat a certain boomkin is. Off nights were just as fun, as we planned, schemed, and got ready for the next raid night.

Unfortunately, we could never break the 25-man hump. Too many people would leave, RL would take over, whatever. But we stayed strong well into Wrath, when RL struck me personally and I lost my job during my wife's first pregnancy.

RSBB went into a coma unfortunately, but embers still smoldered beneath the coals. We never completely disbanded. Attempts were made in Cata to revive, but RL is a fickle thing, and we didn't even touch Mists. My wife and I managed to come back in WoD, but our memories of running RSBB were too painful at the time, so we switched sides and joined a buddy on a different server. We joined a great guild on Kargath called Revolution (who has some awesome peeps btw). We raided a little. Unfortunately, the End-of-WoD content drought nearly made us quit again, but alas, a spark was lit. We got that old feeling. "Yeah, this is good, but we can really make something special". So away we went, back to Bronzebeard, to breathe life into something we thought had died. Except for one thing.

When we returned, we discovered that RSBB had been kept on life-support through the efforts of ONE player: Diviara (specifically his alts). We convinced some pals to return. We started recruiting again. The landscape had changed tremendously from how we knew it (the mixed-servers...yeesh!), but eventually we got to raiding again! We had people! We could log on and at any given moment, there were names to greet us! RSBB had awakened from her coma! A few of our Golden Age players came back! Towards the end of Legion, we stumbled again. Not enough interest in the content killed our active base, but we learned something: With a little more of a push...we could bring back the old days.

And so, a guild restructure was planned. We were going to redo the officer ranks, delegate some of our duties (for our sanity), and try to restore the exact functions of the RSBB ranks as they appeared during TBC (We did some pretty stupid shuffling on permissions during our disastrous attempts at reviving in Cata). We thought the best time to do this would be at BfA's release, when players were returning and we can start from scratch.

Then, the Pre-Patch hit.

Our carefully crafted strategy of reinstating merit-based ranks was destroyed. We are delaying recruiting efforts until we know this "cookie-cutter" approach will be resolved. Our guild has been placed on hold.

Our. Guild.

This thing we created is the closest we will ever have in WoW to a child. It is our creation. Breathed into life by our will, molded, cared for, and sculpted into what it is today. It is the sole thing that keeps us connected to people across the USA (or overseas in Coragar's case) who we have never met face to face. Before the "communities" idea was even conceived, we had already created our own community. This was our Family. We had the tools to make our family great, but those have been taken away.

Blizzard, this is not "generalizing" or "aggrandizing". This is my reality. My wife's reality. This is our story. OURS. Separate from any crafted narrative you could have created. We want to make something special again, so let us do it.

And I'm not the only one asking this.

Get it done.

TL;DR: Our guild is the only thing that keeps us engaged due to the emotional investment we've put in to keep it alive. You're preventing us from doing our best to keep it going.

EDIT: okay, maybe there is ONE instance of snark...
Here is another good idea (still on page 32) about cross-realm guilds:
07/27/2018 04:12 AMPosted by Carthorinn
Yeah it would be nice for use to link "sister guilds" on another server. Where we can run content together and both guilds can get credit for it. But in a semi community format. Not to erase guild controls though. That is what scares me is maintaining guild solidity while trying to run your guild in one way and the community in another way. I think they just need to bite the bullet and lift server restrictions on guilds and let us invite who we want to it. The time has come. I did not realize the legion slogan of "you are not prepared" was referring to this patch for 2 years LOL


Adaptable guild controls would be vital with this concept--but they're vital anyway. Seriously, can we get the "is officer" permissions broken up and then deal with implementing all these great ideas people have been posting? Is there a reason why we need to offer guild improvement suggestions in addition to wanting these horrible permissions reverted? If so, would someone at Blizzard please pass the reason on to us?
And then we have this post (still page 32) which starts out saying the suggestions are undermining the point of the thread. I can't say I disagree, so I'm quoting their main point:
07/27/2018 06:46 AMPosted by Greenstone
The fact that the current Community UI is smashed into the Guiid UI like an undead abomination that it is well it just makes this whole thing harder.

So again to point out the main issues:

1. Bring back the original permission setup.
2. Bring back the original Guild Roster 1 button solution.

This will fix 90% of the complaints in this thread.
And here's another important concept (from page 33) that has been mentioned more than once:
07/27/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Mceuan
Blizzard, who do you think helps keep players engaged during content droughts? Yup, healthy, active guilds with solid leadership. We're not the only reason, but a prominent one. Help us help you, and give us the tools that actually make our role easier, not more difficult.


What? No, I'm not getting impatient for some sort of feedback on when this will get fixed. What makes you think so?
I agree that we shouldn't have to pack up and move on the suggestion of a Blue.
However, in the interest of more widespread visibility... If they want us to report their tinkering with the guild controls as a bug, I'm happy to do so--and have done so:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769736950#post-9

10/09/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Roguewit
Per Blue instructions, posting BUG here.

The Guild UI is broken (intentionally, by Blizzard, as an, "improvement,").
Guild Masters no longer have granular control over their ranks and permissions.
Supporting evidence can be found here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=1

All 89 pages (and counting) of it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=89

A direct response in that thread would go a long way...
10/09/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Roguewit
I agree that we shouldn't have to pack up and move on the suggestion of a Blue.
However, in the interest of more widespread visibility... If they want us to report their tinkering with the guild controls as a bug, I'm happy to do so--and have done so:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769736950#post-9

10/09/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Roguewit
Per Blue instructions, posting BUG here.

The Guild UI is broken (intentionally, by Blizzard, as an, "improvement,").
Guild Masters no longer have granular control over their ranks and permissions.
Supporting evidence can be found here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=1

All 89 pages (and counting) of it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=89

A direct response in that thread would go a long way...


TBH I'm starting to get angry that while players and greens have expressed dissatisfaction with the state of guild controls, not once has a blue even said "yeah this isn't what we wanted, we'll let you know when we can think of a solution".

Yes, they've "seen" us. Maybe even "heard" us. But agreed with us? Not that I recall.
10/09/2018 03:16 PMPosted by Venjin
TBH I'm starting to get angry that while players and greens have expressed dissatisfaction with the state of guild controls, not once has a blue even said "yeah this isn't what we wanted, we'll let you know when we can think of a solution".

Yes, they've "seen" us. Maybe even "heard" us. But agreed with us? Not that I recall.
Well, a Blue's job is to pass our feedback and concerns on to the devs, and then pass the devs' replies to us. While they often comment in threads, I don't think this particular thread is one where it's "safe" for them to say anything that isn't straight from a dev's mouth. So, I think it's entirely possible one or more Blues may agree with us, but they're not at liberty to say so.

I do wish they were at liberty to light a fire under the devs' butts though. This issue has gone way too long without official commentary from Blizz. This isn't a cosmetic thing like Worgen and goblin models (which have gotten mention, if not action), this is a fundamental part of the game that is NOT FUNCTIONING PROPERLY. It might have been a deliberately implemented malfunction, but it's still a malfunction and it NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

Yeah, I'm starting to yell in my posts now. See what you've reduced me to, Blizz? This is pathetic.
10/09/2018 06:46 AMPosted by Raicolette
10/08/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Cheheals
We have been told our issue will be addressed, however we were also told we created this thread in the WRONG forum. We've been given a tip by Itzali, let's heed his advice! :)
So, when we have issues with implementations, we should be posting in the Bug Report forums? I thought that forum was for Bug Reports only?

If that's the case, should we post suggestions there too?

With all due respect though, I'm not going to start reposting the same thing hundreds of other Guild Leaders, Officers, and members have stated here. They have their feedback, 89 pages of feedback, almost 1,800 replies of feedback. They know what the issue is.

This thread is the last bastion of Guild Permissions UI. If we're to start posting our suggestions in the Bug Reports forums, I'll start doing that from now on. As of now though, no point in leaving this thread.


I understand, and totally agree. As you can see, I'm not leaving this thread either. I was feeling we were getting desperate for answers and that finally, we saw a path to getting some attention to our issue.

Yes, one could argue that I'm exploiting Itzali's blue post and his illness...for our purposes. I thought I posted respectfully and sensitively to avoid that appearance. He chose to respond to me. If we can benefit from his attention or direction to others to attend to us well then...it's a win for everyone.

I meant no offense to anyone here and certainly not to Itzali.
10/09/2018 08:29 PMPosted by Cheheals
I meant no offense to anyone here and certainly not to Itzali.


I didn't get an offensive impression from it at all.

Also bump. x_X
10/09/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Venjin
Before the "communities" idea was even conceived, we had already created our own community. This was our Family. We had the tools to make our family great, but those have been taken away.

Blizzard, this is not "generalizing" or "aggrandizing". This is my reality. My wife's reality. This is our story. OURS. Separate from any crafted narrative you could have created. We want to make something special again, so let us do it.

And I'm not the only one asking this.

Get it done.

TL;DR: Our guild is the only thing that keeps us engaged due to the emotional investment we've put in to keep it alive. You're preventing us from doing our best to keep it going.


^That^

There is some of that human emotion / feeling that I've mentioned several times lately.

That's something you can not include in a bug report.

My guild's story is much like Venjin's story (to a point) The main difference is we haven't ever taken off (much) time. Certainly not for several expansions.

However, that difference aside, we are certainly very similar.

We as guild leaders whether we are the leaders of small guilds, medium guilds, or extremely large raiding guilds are all in the same boat in many ways.

We've all created communities of our own. (In my case and I think Venjin's we started back in Vanilla before communities were a sadistic gleam in Blizzard's eye)

We've all been adversely effected by the deliberate slash and burn of OUR guild's guild permissions.

I would also bet my last dollar that we all have some sort of story to tell about our guilds.

Please bear with me.
Another brief guild story from myself.

Years ago during Wrath we were having our own guild's "golden age"

Even in our small guild, there was not a time day or night that you could log on to Wow and not find someone online. We had guildies from all over the world. New Zealand, Germany, the US, several solders stationed in Iraq, and at least one person who claimed to be playing in Japan.

Over the years we've had entire families play so we keep guild chat respectful and PG rated.

We've had doctors, writers, soldiers, factory workers, food service workers, nurses, engineers, computer programmers, parents, grandparents, their kids, and even grand-kids etc...etc...etc....I could continue.

One story of many:

Back in Wrath we had a young married couple join us. Carr and Xe

I found them questing together in Lakeshire.
They were the definition of noobs.

No proper gear, they had out-leveled the area but didn't realize it, and had not even heard of dungeons if I remember correctly.

I invited them to our guild.

Our family.

Our community.

They joined us and "grew up" quickly.

As a Wow player Xe started learning fast. She got good.

She started doing dungeons and getting better and better gear and learned how to run content. She always claimed to randomly smash buttons, but I had my doubts. Once as we were about to wipe in (Ulduar?) I watched her last for a good 10-15 min alone against one of the tougher bosses (I forget which one after all these years) while the rest of us all lay dead. She almost beat it too, except she finally ran out of mana on her now exhausted pally.

Carr was different.

He liked to quest and explore the virtual world of Warcraft.

He would message me most days and just tell me what newness he'd discovered that day.

Oddly enough I discovered what he had to say very interesting.

One day he's got a rare whelpling drop from the Wetlands. This was long before pets were account wide.

He asked me if i wanted it, as he wasn't into pets. I told him he could make a fortune on the AH if he sold it there.

He didn't care about gold much and said he did not know much about the AH.

He mailed me the pet.

I was sorta "struck" by this gift. I don't know how else to describe what i felt.

Looking back, i think I had the vague idea that if I held onto the pet long enough he'd come to his senses sooner or later, wish he'd used or sold it and regret giving it away for free.

I stuck the welpling in my bank.

Several weeks passed.

Carr died suddenly.

Xe whispered me. "Carr died at work this morning"

I thought she was joking...

No joke. Carr had gotten up, went to work at the factory. He'd said he felt a little off to Xe that morning, but nothing specific.

Apparently at the young age of barely 30-something he'd had a massive heart attack and died in the arms of his coworkers.

This was shortly after Xe herself had recently been hospitalized after a miscarriage.

A boy.

They (Carr and Xe) grieved.

So did the guild family.

Carr was dead and Xe was a mess.

She continued to log in day after day clearly distraught and not thinking clearly.

This was Wrath so to distract herself she created a Deathknight.

Back then the DK starter zone was actually hard and she was having a particularly hard time with one quest.

She asked me to take her account and complete it for her. I refused, but "talked" her through it until she got it done on her own.

We talked. And talked. And talked.

At some point I happened to think of the unused whelpling in my bank Carr had given me.

I told he about his gift and asked her if she'd like to have it.

She said "YES!"

I hope she still has it in her collection, and I hope it brings her fond memories of her lost husband.

The rest of us were in shock at Carr's sudden death. We wanted to do something, but we didn't know what we could do.

We thought of sending someone to Xe's location as a guild emissary, but no one lived anywhere near her. We were spread out all over the country and the world.

So.

We had an in-game memorial service at the same time Carr's funeral was taking place.

It was touching. We gathered at our usual guild meeting place and everyone took a few minutes to speak a memory or two about Carr in the circle of our toons we'd created.

I had no way to record the event back then, but I took screenshots and wrote down some of the "better" tributes to Carr on good old fashioned paper so i could show Xe later.

She was astonished at the outpouring of love and grief from her guildies.

I wasn't so much. We're a guild family.

Xe went on to become and officer in BloodOath.

She still plays Wow to this day, although not as avidly.

That Blizzard is a REAL Warcraft community

After all these years, it still is a real community.

It's our guild, it's out family, it's our home on Warcraft.

You are KILLING it

Thank you for bearing with me.

Here's to you Carr.
Rest in peace guild brother.
You are not forgotten.
2 Likes
10/10/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Druunah
Thank you for bearing with me.
My God, Druunah, there was nothing to "bear" except reliving your story and wiping the tears on my cheeks.

THAT, Blizz, is what makes (made?) WoW what it is (was?). I can't believe there's no one in development that understands what we've been trying to convey through this thread. What you've done with the guild UI and permissions is going to destroy guilds--and that isn't hyperbole. There are already examples in this thread of guilds falling apart because of these changes.

None of us should have to keep coming to this thread, trying to knock some sense into your stubborn skulls. We should have just been able to point out the OBVIOUS deficiencies in the changes and patiently waited while they were fixed back in July.

I, for one, would still be patient--if anyone had ever communicated that the problems are understood and a change is in the works. But since expecting anyone to actually care what these changes are doing to guilds (and by extension, WoW) seems to be complete fantasy, we're left with trying to bail out a sinking ship.

I came here to the forums to just find another good idea from earlier in the thread and repost it as usual. Druunah's story kind of struck a nerve. We ALL have stories. Let us keep making them. Fix the guild permissions. THEN work on all the improvements people have been suggesting.
Still broke? Yup.

Still being ignored by Blizz? Yup.
Yep yep, the changes to the guild permissions was a really bad idea but I'm thinking they're gonna address this if only because of the thread extensions.