The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

yes fix this...or just use the old macro...
I thought I'd get to a new page on my read-through, but nope. Still on 26. This is more complaint than suggestion, but it's specific and clearly states how this guild handled things prior to the changes, how the changes affected them, and what other parts of the guild interface (besides the "is officer" issue) are causing problems. Some of these issues have been addressed in hot fixes (if I'm not mistaken) but not all.
07/25/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Greenstone
As a Guild Master I have been dealing with this since the new patch.

Basically I had to get rid of two of my ranks due to the changes.
My officers have more permissions than I intended for them to have now.
And my guildies can not do functions that they normally should be able to do.

1. Since the "IsOfficer" permissions are so broad, we can no longer set up different types of officer ranks. Normally in the guild we would have 2 or 3 different types of officers.

For example:
Officer
Raid Captains
Recruiter

Each rank would have a different job, each rank could only do certain things, and it would allow a Guild Master to reward individuals that have shown loyalty or interests in performing a job, giving them their own title.

2. Removal of the "MUTE" ability also destroyed the ability to stifle problems in a guild.

A mute rank is setup as the lowest permission rank.
Meaning when someone new is added to a guild by a non-officer who can not promote, they are in that rank until an officer promotes them.
Overall the mute rank is a way we have more control over who speaks in gchat so that we don't have spam or insults flying around.

For example:
A fight starts between 4-5 regular guildies over loot or something silly, something you know will pass, basically you can mute them in gchat and control the fight until they calm down. Rather than kicking 4-5 people for not following guild rules.

So the ability the mute a guild member is a double use ability. Removing or deleting chat from communities is not the same as muting someone so trying to equate the two is apples to oranges. Especially if its a fight between four or five individuals.

3. You no longer allow guildies to change their own note - only officers can do so which means now every time someone is added an officer needs to be involved - believe me that is not easy, I normally do the notes because my officers are not around half the time and my guildies tend to forget to do it.

4. On live currently (patch 8.0) Guildies seem to be unable to invite since they do not have the "isofficer" permission, the invite button is greyed out. Not sure if the actual /ginvite command still works for them.

5. The new Comunity UI panel is nothing but complaints from my officers and members, from missing people who are online, to being unable to check how many people are online, also being unable to invite to guild, or having chat channels being included.

For example:

ZONE - shows everyone's zone except those who are offline, for them it shows how long they have been offline, makes sense, except if you wanted to remove people now you have to contend with trying to figure out sorting order.

/JOIN Channel - The channels added this way do not show up in the community chat at all and rather than give you a way to merge a channel that previously was created into the chat it just creates a new community with that channel name.

Removed information such as the list of who has has achieved exalted with guild.
Removed information such as the number of people who are currently on versus the number characters in the guild.

People missing from the list even though they are clearly online and talking in party chat.

Basically we would have been better served if the old "Guild Roster" button was put on the bottom of the "Community UI" panel, and all the extra tabs were removed.

I have complained about these things on BETA, PTR and on LIVE but still no changes have been made or fixes done.

Blizzard, is it really your intent to ignore this problem until the few of us maintaining this thread give up? Do you think we're really the only ones affected? Do you think people are simply adjusting and not quitting WoW altogether?

I've said before, my guild is a tiny, friends and family guild. I had been toying with the idea of maybe growing it, inviting new players, letting people learn the game and do instances with guildies who aren't worried about io scores. But managing a guild is tough enough without having these guild interface issues to deal with.

This problem isn't affecting the way I managed my guild. It's simply making me not expand the guild to include others and help them enjoy this massively multiplayer game as it should be enjoyed. If that's what you intended these changes to do, well, then...grats?
09/29/2018 02:34 PMPosted by Fumel
Blizzard, is it really your intent to ignore this problem until the few of us maintaining this thread give up?


That is actually the whole idea.
BUMP!
09/29/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Smadinkle
09/29/2018 02:34 PMPosted by Fumel
Blizzard, is it really your intent to ignore this problem until the few of us maintaining this thread give up?


That is actually the whole idea.
I don't honestly believe that. If I did, I'd hang it up and just unsubscribe. In any case, I'm not giving up. I'm only on page 26 of my read-through. I've got a long way to go before I run out of posts to highlight.
No responses from Blizzard as yet?

BUMP!!

(I actually meant it when I said I wont go away!)
09/30/2018 06:06 AMPosted by Druunah
No responses from Blizzard as yet?

BUMP!!

(I actually meant it when I said I wont go away!)
Yeah, but "Bump" doesn't help. It actually gives Blizz a reason to shut the thread down. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769467027#post-2

It might get repetitive to keep typing out what you really want changed, but do it anyway. Tell them you don't like the all-in-one permissions if that's what your issue is. They can't read your mind, so TELL them. Over and over again if you have to.

As for me, I'd like to make my guild into a "real" guild, but I don't have time to manage it myself. I would like the permissions broken up so I can assign different jobs to different members without making them all the same level of officer with the same permissions. I honestly don't think it's too much to ask to have the permissions broken up again.
So, I set up three different ranks...each with varying levels of permissions. I did this much in the same way that a network admin would do with users or groups in a domain. I selected the permissions based on my own groups that I defined. I do not like the pre-made groups or permissions. Could we please stop simplifying the game to make it more "accessible" to others? Guild masters like to have a level of granularity in the administration of permissions for their guilds. This is absolutely poor, whereas granularity is GOOD.
Eesh, still with this? Yep, sticking a browser tab on this one too, then. My interweb is back and I got nowhere to be.
Oooh i can weigh in!!!

As a GM for over 8 years ( Diff Guilds ) i can say the new UI system is garbage, they have taken away all control and choice when it comes to rank and guild setup, ALL personalization has been taken away from us. we want more options not less.

I used to be able to setup ranks for silenced members /trolls who cant keep it shut, i used to be able to set our legend rank to see officer chat but not comment. now i cant.

And on this, MASTER LOOT!!!!!!! give it back . im gonna drop a mic in the general forums in a minute proving the disconnect between players and Blizz stay tuned my bois
My daily read-through has brought me to page 27. This was back in July folks. Top of the page is another wonderful explanation about the ramifications of the all-in-one permissions if these are left as-is.
07/25/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Æthelwulf
Trust me the internal once a year or even once a quarter compliance training (Especially in the Medical and Financial sectors) that are repetitive boring and absolutely necessary dealing with keeping your company information safe know your customer, anti money laundering, bank secrecy act, HIPPA etc are pounded into each and every cubicle denizen in those industries because at one point each of those industries did not do that and the results were:

Data Theft, Loss of Reputation, Regulatory fines, legal fees associated with people suing those who had their private company data stolen or exposed, and in one instance even a ruling holding investigative firms liable for harms they cause by divulging personal information (Amy Boyer's murder).

A multi million dollar or multi billion dollar firm takes a large hit to the wallet when customers of that company stop doing business with them because they can no longer trust them with their data.

What makes it worse, is that most of these companies that have suffered under such events, had at their resource ways to mitigate the precipitory actions that lead to the, mostly, unintentional data breaches, but did not for a variety of reasons pay attention to the data they had custody of until after the event had occurred.

Now the issues I speak of are issues in the real world. The concepts are similar if not exactly the same in Azeroth. The consequences equally as important for the community in Azeroth as it is to citizens of the good old earth (you might say we Azerothians hold dual citizenship (tongue firmly in cheek)) Lumping all of the guild controls under two flags IsGM or IsOfficer (Member being the (current) ground state of rank in a guild it needs no flag its akin to the Everyone role in Windows Security Scheme) treats all of the citizens of Azeroth who are members of guilds equally and that might seem okay until some event occurs that could have been prevented (guild bank being emptied out by a bad actor comes to mind as an example or unintended officer chat divulged to a non officer causing unnecessary strife and drama in a guild) by not lumping all these controls together in the manner they are now. At that point (though no law currently exists to regulate Azeroth in that manner) agencies outside Azeroth not under Blizzards control are going to begin to ask questions. Especially if someone in the real world is harmed by the actions in this game.

Blizzard wouldn't it be in your best interest to forestall such an event? Sure its an edge case. But edge cases have a way of coming back to haunt you. Might you Blizzard not be best served by giving the guild leaders back control of their guilds?
Is this post a bit alarmist? Perhaps. Maybe all the possible damage would only ever be virtual and not spill over into the real world. But really Blizz, do you honestly want to take that chance? Especially when all you have to do is return granular permission control to the Guild masters?

Just fix it already, or explain why you think it works as it is. Please.
Hello? Blizzard? You there?

“Noooo noooo blizzard no here”

BUH
MMMM
PAAAAAH
11 hours later....

Rank-by-rank permissions customization good, "Is Officer" button bad.
[quote]
09/30/2018 06:06 AMPosted by Druunah
No responses from Blizzard as yet?

BUMP!!

(I actually meant it when I said I wont go away!)
Yeah, but "Bump" doesn't help. It actually gives Blizz a reason to shut the thread down. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769467027#post-2

It might get repetitive to keep typing out what you really want changed, but do it anyway. Tell them you don't like the all-in-one permissions if that's what your issue is. They can't read your mind, so TELL them. Over and over again if you have to.

_____________________________________________________________________

Fumel. Thanks for the advice, I actually use almost the same exact same wording and gave the exact same advice several pages back.

No one listened

Respectfully, I am in fact telling Blizzard something and I am not simply typing "bump"

I in fact told them (Blizzard) several pages back that I will not go away, and that by re-posting the same thing over and over I would thereby be "bumping" the post. Typing "bump" just sends the point home in my opinion.

If it makes you feel better however:

BLIZZARD! Our guilds are still broken!!

NO ONE has posted anything about how good the new guild permissions are!

NO ONE!!

There are now nearly 85 pages of guild leaders explaining how their guilds are broken and why they (at the very least) would like to have their guild functions restored to them.

There are many many who have written how they HATE the new guild permissions, and WHY THEY HATE THEM over and over and over.

By typing "BUMP" into this post they (we) are trying to show you (Blizzard) that we are sick to death of trying to get your attention by typing out a many paragraphed post of "whys" to you when we've already done that multiple times already each!!!

Again, I am not going away, I am NOT going to forget.

The new guild ui is a mess.

I can not delegate power within my guild with the guild as it is now.

Please give us our guild functions back so we can function properly.

Signed,

Everyone.


ie: Bump!!

(See what I did there?)
Not reading all 1600+ posts to see if this has been mentioned yet, but...

Blizzard, why is it that when I open the new guild UI, on the guild roster tab it will show me (as an example) 5 players online, but if I type /groster to bring up the old guild UI it will show more than 5 people are actually online?

It's not always the same people being omitted from the new guild UI, seems to be somewhat random, any level, race etc.

Very annoying when you see someone talking in gchat about why they haven't gotten a raid invite when you never knew they were online to begin with.
09/30/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Fumel
Yeah, but "Bump" doesn't help. It actually gives Blizz a reason to shut the thread down.
Shut down a thread about a legitimate issue where feedback has already been given over the course of 83 pages now and we can't get a response from them 4 months into this issue? How well would that look on them from a PR standpoint to GMs? They're dodging the issue and refuse to comment on it.

40 hours a day and not 1 darn developer or CM can come in here and say they're working on something.
10/01/2018 06:45 AMPosted by Raicolette
09/30/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Fumel
Yeah, but "Bump" doesn't help. It actually gives Blizz a reason to shut the thread down.
Shut down a thread about a legitimate issue where feedback has already been given over the course of 83 pages now and we can't get a response from them 4 months into this issue? How well would that look on them from a PR standpoint to GMs? They're dodging the issue and refuse to comment on it.

40 hours a day and not 1 darn developer or CM can come in here and say they're working on something.
I'm just saying that we don't want to give them any excuses. They WILL close the thread if they feel they can. It's happened on other mega-threads I've been a party to.

10/01/2018 05:58 AMPosted by Druunah
Fumel. Thanks for the advice, I actually use almost the same exact same wording and gave the exact same advice several pages back.

No one listened

Respectfully, I am in fact telling Blizzard something and I am not simply typing "bump"

I in fact told them (Blizzard) several pages back that I will not go away, and that by re-posting the same thing over and over I would thereby be "bumping" the post. Typing "bump" just sends the point home in my opinion.
I totally get where you're coming from Druunah, and I would agree with you except (as I mentioned above) I've been in threads that were closed for very specious reasons. I really want something done with this issue and not have it swept under the rug.

A bit of explanation about what I've been trying to accomplish in this thread:

I've been pulling up older posts and quoting them because then people can look at this character's post history and get a condensed version of this thread. (I've rarely posted on any other topics with this character.) I figure that gives anyone at Blizzard a way to easily see most of the relevant reasoning for why this change is bad, as well as many of the great ideas for guilds folks have been posting. Few people really want to wade through all the posts just to find the unique comments and ideas.

The vast majority of posts are pointing out how bad this change is--and they're absolutely right to do so. A good number of others are complaining about Blizzard's lack of response, and they're not wrong, either. I'm just trying to consolidate the good ideas and excellent reasoning I see in many of the posts so no one at Blizzard can complain that we're not giving the feedback they need.

Maybe I'm wrong and what I'm doing isn't necessary, but since we've gotten no communication from Blizz, I don't want to assume anything. If they only told us they understand the problem and have a fix in the works, we could maybe let this go. Then again, as much as I'd like to have them say that, I'm not sure I'd believe them until the "fix" is live. And this is what the lack of communication Blizz has been practicing leads to: complete distrust on the part of a player who used to believe in them.

Edit: I just looked at my post history, and while there are a handful of unrelated posts, this topic still goes back through 6 pages of my history. The posts I quote are all good ones (not that I don't miss other good ones). But after combing through only 27 pages of this thread thus far, I've still found enough great comments to fill 6 pages of my history. How the heck can Blizzard say they don't have enough feedback, and how can they still be ignoring us?
09/28/2018 12:16 PMPosted by Mythreus
As an aside its weird topics like this need cap extensions..i mean how complicated is it. Just revert the changes.


That's just it: they cannot simply revert the changes. They took their new social "thing" with the discord-like chat feel but just three levels of control and rammed it into use for guilds. It's a total clusterfsck and they have no clue how to fix or change things now and I suspect they are just hoping that the complainers will just melt away. This is why branching out from a handful of forum threads that no one in the upper tiers of blizzard management are aware of and actually seeking out people who can provide answers is the way to go.

I'm not kidding when I say better options would be to go outside of the forums. Blizzard isn't listening because they do not want to.

Edited because suggesting people search for more direct means to contact blizzard about the issues Blizzard choses to ignore is apparently against the Blizzard ToS as Blizzard wants us to just sit here in the Blizzard forums and cry and cry about how Blizzard has broken a big part of the game and ignores a large part of the Blizzard player base.
10/01/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Randomly
I'm not kidding when I say our best option at this point is to data mine contact information off LinkeIN or other resources and start calling/emailing people. Consider also starting a petition over at change.org, plus other outside organizing instead of just adding bumps to this thread.
This is counter productive and clearly against ToS. Also, please don't bring in the suggestion of this here, as this is ground to remove the last thread of the Guild Permissions.

If anything, it's better to start trying out other MMOs on the side, if the path of the game continues to what you don't want. For example, I'm currently playing Final Fantasy 14 on the side. If WoW gets to the point where I don't like it, I'll either drop and switch to FF14 or just not play no where near as much.

Again, please don't bring those ideas into this thread or suggest them.
….don't think that's what that .org is meant for....>.>

Don't clog up that site with this when they're raising money for first responder hospital bills and, like....starving kids. >.<