Checking in again to make sure my voice is heard. Everyone contributing to this discussion needs to keep doing so.
As of right now, I haven't assigned anyone in our guild with the "Is Officer" box since there are certain permissions I will not assign to anyone in the guild, regardless of rank. As a result of this, nobody in the guild has access to any of those eight privileges since they're all lumped together in a one-size-fits-all definition of an officer.
Please give us the individual permission customization we had prior to patch 8.0. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.
For further recommendations to help guild management, add a complete log/record system for the guild bank so the guild master can keep track of cumulative records on gold deposits, gold repairs, gold withdraws, item deposits, and item withdraws. If WoW developers can create and maintain a statistics tab with all kinds of totally useless information for my character, they can add a simple feature that lets me keep track of a few guild bank records. That would actually help guilds.
Please address this problem sooner than later. This thread began on July 17. We're now at September 17 and we're five weeks into BfA content. I'm not asking for an apology. Just please revert the permissions change. That's it. Many people have already given detailed explanations and feedback here over these 71 pages. You have what you need, and the "discussion" has already occurred. Read it, and pass the information along to the next group of people who need to make the correction. Failure to do so will just further the stereotypes of poor communication at Blizzard.
I will continue to check in here until the change is made. Everyone else needs to do so, too.
09/17/2018 08:54 AMPosted by WretchedmistChecking in again to make sure my voice is heard. Everyone contributing to this discussion needs to keep doing so.
As of right now, I haven't assigned anyone in our guild with the "Is Officer" box since there are certain permissions I will not assign to anyone in the guild, regardless of rank. As a result of this, nobody in the guild has access to any of those eight privileges since they're all lumped together in a one-size-fits-all definition of an officer.
Please give us the individual permission customization we had prior to patch 8.0. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.
For further recommendations to help guild management, add a complete log/record system for the guild bank so the guild master can keep track of cumulative records on gold deposits, gold repairs, gold withdraws, item deposits, and item withdraws. If WoW developers can create and maintain a statistics tab with all kinds of totally useless information for my character, they can add a simple feature that lets me keep track of a few guild bank records. That would actually help guilds.
Please address this problem sooner than later. This thread began on July 17. We're now at September 17 and we're five weeks into BfA content. I'm not asking for an apology. Just please revert the permissions change. That's it. Many people have already given detailed explanations and feedback here over these 71 pages. You have what you need, and the "discussion" has already occurred. Read it, and pass the information along to the next group of people who need to make the correction. Failure to do so will just further the stereotypes of poor communication at Blizzard.
I will continue to check in here until the change is made. Everyone else needs to do so, too.
This pretty much sums up everything my wife has been asking for in terms of an immediate solution.
OP, please change the thread title to a GD lounge or a joke thread. We can lure some blues in that way.
Blizzard, you asked for feedback during the Q&A of September. The fact that you asked for us to provide you feedback after there were threads created the day of patch 8.0 about Guild Permissions is pathetic to say straight forward.
When Pre-Patch hit, there were 2 active threads about the Guild Permissions UI when it dropped on July, the 17th to be precise. Now we're down to 1 thread that only has 2 blue comments from Ythisens that only says thread cap extended. 3 months into the Guild Permissions issue and you can't come in here and say, "We're working on updating the permissions. I don't have any specifics right now but here's what we have so far. What do you guys think?" A comment with a example of what you have in development to update it, we could provide you exact feedback on what you're doing with it. Our feedback from this thread alone, is enough to tell you what we want. We want the old permissions.
These permission changes affect everyone from Raiding, to casual, and RP guilds. You've hit a critical blow on the Guild Leaders and Officers effectiveness and cleanliness to micro-manage their guilds. How can you trust a single button to have so much power in a guild with such limited controls already? How can anyone at Blizzard have thought this was a good idea? I'm questioning if anyone is even a GM or a officer in a guild at Blizzard.
I'll describe how our guild utilizes the permissions. We're a Super Casual guild but I don't trust everyone of our "Guide" rank of the officer role to do everything a Officer could do. Back when permissions weren't jacked up, here's how our guild ranks worked:
Novice
- Only access to guild repairs (minimal).
- Invite members
Guildie
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Invite Members
Guide
- Invite Members
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Speak in Officer Chat
- Listen in Officer Chat
- Remove members
Officer (Re-name in the works)
- Invite Members
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Speak in Officer Chat
- Listen in Officer Chat
- Remove members
- Promote
- Demote
- Edit MOTD
Guild Master (Re-name in the works)
- Everything
That's how I had our permissions setup. Now, with the new permissions you expect me to entrust everyone in the Guide rank the ability to delete other people's messages, modify Guild info, public notes, removing people from chat, and the guild its self? I'm glad some of you up in Blizzard trust your guilds that much but not all of us do or even use the Officer permissions like that. I used to talk to the Guides, when they're online, all through the in-game Officer chat. Now, if I want to, I have to PM each individually, use a 3rd party software, or the god forsaken Officer role.
Since the Guild Permissions change, I've only given Officer role to the 1 officer in our guild. You've crippled not only ours but other guilds ability to mange their guilds how they see fit. May I remind you, you have RP, Raiding, casual, and all other kinds of guilds in the World of Warcraft? This can not continue forward the way it is.
When the GMs and Guild Members before my time of picking up WoW asked for an update to the Guild Tab and new guild unique things, I'm strongly confident that this is not what they had in mind. Since the Guild Permissions change, every now and then, our Guides ask me when are they going to see the Officer Notes and other permissions they had back. Every time, all I can tell them is, "I, we, are waiting for a response back from Blizzard. We're 74 pages in now and the Q&A didn't address it. Sorry."
How does it feel, knowing that you're living up to the stereotype of not listening to feedback? One of the largest threads with a legitimate problem, from one of the core aspects of your community, and still has no reply 3 months in. Where is the disconnect? What do you need from us that a 74 page thread hasn't warranted a worthy enough response of we want to be acknowledged it's being looked into, changed back, or coming soon.
Of the 9 weeks that have passed, assuming a normal work day of 8 hours, 360 work hours have passed, and you can't come into this thread and say something to us? Where did we go wrong? What did we do to deserve this?
We want our guild control back. We wanted more control not less control. Give us back our Guild Permissions. Please.
When Pre-Patch hit, there were 2 active threads about the Guild Permissions UI when it dropped on July, the 17th to be precise. Now we're down to 1 thread that only has 2 blue comments from Ythisens that only says thread cap extended. 3 months into the Guild Permissions issue and you can't come in here and say, "We're working on updating the permissions. I don't have any specifics right now but here's what we have so far. What do you guys think?" A comment with a example of what you have in development to update it, we could provide you exact feedback on what you're doing with it. Our feedback from this thread alone, is enough to tell you what we want. We want the old permissions.
These permission changes affect everyone from Raiding, to casual, and RP guilds. You've hit a critical blow on the Guild Leaders and Officers effectiveness and cleanliness to micro-manage their guilds. How can you trust a single button to have so much power in a guild with such limited controls already? How can anyone at Blizzard have thought this was a good idea? I'm questioning if anyone is even a GM or a officer in a guild at Blizzard.
I'll describe how our guild utilizes the permissions. We're a Super Casual guild but I don't trust everyone of our "Guide" rank of the officer role to do everything a Officer could do. Back when permissions weren't jacked up, here's how our guild ranks worked:
Novice
- Only access to guild repairs (minimal).
- Invite members
Guildie
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Invite Members
Guide
- Invite Members
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Speak in Officer Chat
- Listen in Officer Chat
- Remove members
Officer (Re-name in the works)
- Invite Members
- Can edit their public note
- Create Guild Events
- Remove Guild Events
- Speak in Officer Chat
- Listen in Officer Chat
- Remove members
- Promote
- Demote
- Edit MOTD
Guild Master (Re-name in the works)
- Everything
That's how I had our permissions setup. Now, with the new permissions you expect me to entrust everyone in the Guide rank the ability to delete other people's messages, modify Guild info, public notes, removing people from chat, and the guild its self? I'm glad some of you up in Blizzard trust your guilds that much but not all of us do or even use the Officer permissions like that. I used to talk to the Guides, when they're online, all through the in-game Officer chat. Now, if I want to, I have to PM each individually, use a 3rd party software, or the god forsaken Officer role.
Since the Guild Permissions change, I've only given Officer role to the 1 officer in our guild. You've crippled not only ours but other guilds ability to mange their guilds how they see fit. May I remind you, you have RP, Raiding, casual, and all other kinds of guilds in the World of Warcraft? This can not continue forward the way it is.
When the GMs and Guild Members before my time of picking up WoW asked for an update to the Guild Tab and new guild unique things, I'm strongly confident that this is not what they had in mind. Since the Guild Permissions change, every now and then, our Guides ask me when are they going to see the Officer Notes and other permissions they had back. Every time, all I can tell them is, "I, we, are waiting for a response back from Blizzard. We're 74 pages in now and the Q&A didn't address it. Sorry."
How does it feel, knowing that you're living up to the stereotype of not listening to feedback? One of the largest threads with a legitimate problem, from one of the core aspects of your community, and still has no reply 3 months in. Where is the disconnect? What do you need from us that a 74 page thread hasn't warranted a worthy enough response of we want to be acknowledged it's being looked into, changed back, or coming soon.
Of the 9 weeks that have passed, assuming a normal work day of 8 hours, 360 work hours have passed, and you can't come into this thread and say something to us? Where did we go wrong? What did we do to deserve this?
We want our guild control back. We wanted more control not less control. Give us back our Guild Permissions. Please.
2 Likes
"Azerite Power Grind and Why it's Flawed".
We'd have a solid response if that was the thread title.
We'd have a solid response if that was the thread title.
More Tweets, This one in response to @BlizzardCS asking us to report bugs:
https://twitter.com/roguewit/status/1042053692558598145
Replying to @BlizzardCS
Ongoing, "bug,":
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=76 …
#Warcraft #GuildsAreBroken #WarcraftDevsWillNotCommunicateOnThisIssue
https://twitter.com/roguewit/status/1042053692558598145
Replying to @BlizzardCS
Ongoing, "bug,":
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=76 …
#Warcraft #GuildsAreBroken #WarcraftDevsWillNotCommunicateOnThisIssue
I don't know why I'm expecting the Livestream to offer insight on this.
We're clearly being ignored at this point :(
We're clearly being ignored at this point :(
Annnnnnnnnnnnnd...not addressed again.
No blue.
No mentions.
Nothing.
No blue.
No mentions.
Nothing.
09/18/2018 11:24 AMPosted by VenjinAnnnnnnnnnnnnnd...not addressed again.
No blue.
No mentions.
Nothing.
In fact, Ion has noticed us. That's why there was no Q&A.
I missed a couple of days because, as I said, I was traveling, so here are two posts from page 24 that I think are worth a second look:
It's crazy to me why Blizzard is saying things like, "Give us feedback", but doing and saying absolutely nothing about the feedback we've given. Is it not enough? Do you just not like any of it? We're poking around in the dark here--give us some light, will ya?
I think this first suggestion would be very helpful for guilds that like to run a lot of instanced content together.07/24/2018 05:36 PMPosted by BeruseinThe suggestion I would have is to add another tab to pull useful information for. Hell, it would be amazing to have a tab for the officers and guild to simply look at our fellow guildies talents and armory within game. I often ask fellow guild mates what they run when they play a different class and if they are not online I can check it out myself and ask them more on point questions.
This one is another explanation of how this guild used the original permissions and why the current ones don't work for them.07/24/2018 05:37 PMPosted by PerdloveBefore the prepatch, I had the guild rank of "Bank Manager". It's not exactly an officer, but did have some officer privileges such as inviting, promoting, demoting, removing from the guild, and editing guild notes. I'm responsible for making sure our raiders are buffed up for the fights; cauldrons, feasts, etc.
It was useful because while I might not be an officer, I do play a lot and having access to those things really helped make it so the actual officers didn't need to log in every time someone needed a guild invite, or when something happened within the guild that was easily solvable.
If there's any way to revert the guild menu/privileges back to how they were, but keep the community menu, that would be amazing. Although, if it were up to me, the entire community tab would be scrapped altogether; WoW is the community, creating communities within a community only leads to bad things imo.
It's crazy to me why Blizzard is saying things like, "Give us feedback", but doing and saying absolutely nothing about the feedback we've given. Is it not enough? Do you just not like any of it? We're poking around in the dark here--give us some light, will ya?
My periodic post to ask for the permissions changes to be reverted or improved. We need the granular permissions we used to have and we could use "Edit Own Public Note", "Edit All Public Notes" settings.
Editing to add some limited workarounds:
Use this macro to open/close the old roster window with one key:/run if IsInGuild() then if not GuildFrame then GuildFrame_LoadUI() end GuildFrame_Toggle() GuildFrameTab2:Click() endUse the Guild Roster Manager (GRM) addon. I was using it before the problems, and it is a great tool. <span class="truncated">...</span>The developer is extremely responsive and has added support for public notes: If a member types "!note note goes here" anything after !note will be their public note as long as an officer with GRM installed is on.
This isn't where we want to be, but it is helping us through this rough patch.
So I'm going to quote this for two reasons - one so people can see, and second to bring about a point to the Devs - people are now using an addon that lets others basically access other's accounts for guild notes GUILD NOTES, just for that little bit of freedom they had before.
Further more and this is just me - but this change came along with the personal loot change, and being quite frank about it. Together it feels like im in Russia or some far off place that's not Azeroth, one to where we have 0 control over anything anymore, the only options we have is on or off. I can see the reason for personal loot and i can live with it, the guild permissions is just a step to far in the wrong direction.
At this point i would love for the guild permission change to be reverted, or i fear the next step is going to be we aren't even going to be in charge of who's in the guild anymore.
Can you answer one question for me? Currently my guild officers are using GRM and it disconnects upon log in everytime(no matter the sync speed). Anyway to fix this?
08/06/2018 10:15 AMPosted by YthisensExtended the cap once more on this one!
As you can imagine we're aware of this thread but don't have anything to share at this time but just wanted to say thanks for the continued feedback on this one. As soon as we have something to share we will post that for you guys.
Go figure nothing done yet.
This would be a developer question. Join the addon's discord here and describe what's going on.09/18/2018 07:10 PMPosted by VizlokCan you answer one question for me? Currently my guild officers are using GRM and it disconnects upon log in everytime(no matter the sync speed). Anyway to fix this?
https://discord.gg/wCr9hx
bump!
Perhaps we should mention the Dreadwake mount is a clear sign of declining sub numbers?
Maybe then we'll get a concrete response?
Maybe then we'll get a concrete response?
I don't think the mount signifies anything except Blizzard planning a promotion to coincide with Pirate's Day. I mean, I got a Tyreal's Charger years back for participating in a similar promotion, and WoW hasn't died from that one yet, either.09/19/2018 01:50 PMPosted by VenjinPerhaps we should mention the Dreadwake mount is a clear sign of declining sub numbers?
Maybe then we'll get a concrete response?
Honestly though, we've provided tons of feedback in this thread and others. I don't see what more they want from us. Can't we please just have the permissions separated out again?
Here is another post from page 24--that is quoting yet another post on that page--explaining what is so horribly wrong with having the all-in-one permissions. It's long, but very much worth the read:
07/24/2018 06:58 PMPosted by Æthelwulf07/24/2018 06:30 PMPosted by AngosiaI'm going to argue against Blizzard in the case of the guild control changes but not in the context most are presently doing.
As Blizzard's security staff knows, when doing role-based access control permissions (and/or profiles), the principle of "Least Privilege" applies. This, in lay terms, means "Only what permissions are required to do the necessary tasks for that job role".
In this context, I am not comfortable granting a person who I did not designate an officer to have all officer permissions. Nor do I necessarily want to grant an officer all of the current permissions. In my guild hierarchy, the structure only allows 3 people to invite to the guild AND remove from the guild even though we may have a separate structure for officers.
(This is to combat the notion that 1 person is the benevolent dictator {i.e. GM}. We have a council of 3 Founders. If 2 disagree, I act as the tie-breaker as the "GM". Generally speaking, we don't disagree, but we can.)
I have a separate tier of "officers" in the context that most guilds use them today. These do my guild recruiting, raid leading, and class officer roles that most guilds have today. However, I do not grant them the ability to remove individuals from the guild nor would I.
This is a way of decentralizing power but also not providing a scenario where officers might disagree and act against each other intentionally or otherwise. They should be able to discuss this as a group and make the recommendation to the Founders. As a rule, I tend to let the two Founders handle those disputes (we really don't see any, but that's why the structure is there). I know both of the other Founders in person and I trust both implicitly, so it is a simple phone call or text from either of them to get my opinion if a tie should result.
In this context, as a person who has drafted security policies in a past architect role and as a current Operations Manager role, I am disinclined to give ranks permissions that I do not want them to have. It was granularly set in this fashion for a very good reason - and it is a technical control to help ensure that officers in my guild can't act on a whim.
While my vetting process is actually pretty good, it isn't perfect as nothing can be perfect. You're removing my ability to set practical guild permissions for the sake of simplifying the experience. I don't mind if there's a "simple" mode for folks who don't want to manage it, but give me an "advanced" mode so that folks who want to manage those things can.
I would like to expound on this topic and actually focus in on the principle stated in the second paragraph. Specifically the Principle of Least Privilege. There are literally enough volumes on this concept to fill libraries to overflowing.
The Principle of Least Privilege (PoLP) is the standard of Information Security that is adhered to by most if not all corporations (both public and private) government agencies (whether Global Federal State or Local in scope). It is the heart and soul of profile or role based security systems.
At its heart PoLP maintains that you only give the least permissions to a role that is necessary for that role to perform its function. You then assign users to that specific role so that should you need to change the scope of the role and the users in that role you do it once and each member then has the role's scope adjusted.
It saves the administrator time and effort in having to track down all the users of a role. He simply need only change the permissions assigned to that role.
Likewise if a user must be removed from a role there is no need to change the other users permissions you simply remove that person from the role. This can save enormously valuable time if the user is found to be a bad actor. You remove that users role from them while not disturbing the operations of others and prevent the bad actor from causing damage to you system.
Then there is the implied concept of granularity in the PoLP. Invoking PoLP allows the administrator to clearly define a role by assigning certain permissions to that role and not others.
A guild raid leader might need more access to guild bank resources and or guild reward systems for loot from bosses than a Class Officer might need. Similarly a Production Fire Team might need read access to Production Servers but probably should not be given write or modify permissions. A Production DBA who is the DB Owner might need read write and modify but certainly should not have sa privileges on a DB he does not own and likely should not have remote access OS Level permissions to a Production server.
By compromising this system intentionally, by flagging all of the above roles as simply Officer, you invite disaster.
You invite the accidental or incidental promotion of a bad actor to a level that has access to the guild bank and can then rob that guild blind. Then you have GL's sending in tickets for recovery of items and demanding (rightfully so since you put them in that position by lumping all Officer roles under one set of permissions) that they be reimbursed for the items.
Then you start getting false reports from gl's that think they can 'game' the system by filing false tickets and getting items they never had. This creates FAR more work for your GM's than you had previously slowing down the system AND making you hire more of them to handle the unexpected volume.
But lets turn the tables just for an instance. What if tomorrow you came in to work and all of the permissions for all of the data in your corporation were set to a single role. Could you be expected to continue business as usual? No? Then you have your answer for GL's too.
I don't think the mount signifies anything except Blizzard planning a promotion to coincide with Pirate's Day. I mean, I got a Tyreal's Charger years back for participating in a similar promotion, and WoW hasn't died from that one yet, either.09/19/2018 01:50 PMPosted by VenjinPerhaps we should mention the Dreadwake mount is a clear sign of declining sub numbers?
Maybe then we'll get a concrete response?
Honestly though, we've provided tons of feedback in this thread and others. I don't see what more they want from us. Can't we please just have the permissions separated out again?
I just said that because I noticed the threads mentioning the dreadwake got a blue response despite being completely unrelated to pressing needs regarding gameplay or QoL changes within the game. To me that's unacceptable that the subject was even addressed over this thread.
So, still waiting for this experiment to be over and we go back to regular guild permissions and such.
Geez, the greens are responding to the Dreadwake threads too.
But here we are, languishing for weeks with only extensions and a vague "we've seen this" statement as our hope for respite.
But here we are, languishing for weeks with only extensions and a vague "we've seen this" statement as our hope for respite.
You're right about that. Well, at least that they should respond to this thread, too. I don't care if they respond to "make the sparkle pony pink" threads, either, as long as they address more pressing issues too....I don't think the mount signifies anything except Blizzard planning a promotion to coincide with Pirate's Day. I mean, I got a Tyreal's Charger years back for participating in a similar promotion, and WoW hasn't died from that one yet, either.
Honestly though, we've provided tons of feedback in this thread and others. I don't see what more they want from us. Can't we please just have the permissions separated out again?
I just said that because I noticed the threads mentioning the dreadwake got a blue response despite being completely unrelated to pressing needs regarding gameplay or QoL changes within the game. To me that's unacceptable that the subject was even addressed over this thread.
I just don't know what we need to do to get some attention on this issue. It's almost like a Twilight Zone episode at this point.