Jareff, I appreciate your participation in the thread we need as many people with a clear viewpoint of the issue in here and hopefully the Devs are aware of the issue and can make the change by Tuesday if at all. I really want to just get back to enjoying the game.
A Tuesday fix would be nice...
I think Jareff made a good summary although I am hoping for both of those things to happen. First a reversion of the changes so guilds can operate the same as before and further revision of the guild system to improve and add features instead of reducing and taking them away. There are so many features here that should be improved from recruiting to chat to member ranking to the bank as well as adding functionality with the functionality recently introduced like being able to link communities to guilds and voice chat channel management.
Daily bump
Hey all, good work at keep this thread present.
In the last couple of days there seems to be a divide in consensus within the thread.
As Jareff rightly pointed out it would be a dual stage process, Fix and then improve. So seeing posts about limiting suggestions is just not smart...
A revert may be faster than an overhaul for sure not arguing there at all and for the short term fix(if they even can), that's great. But not moving forward to improvements while we have this opportunity available to us is shortsighted. It could be that they will not revert because they have changed so much under the hood (code wise) with the implementation of communities that they actually cant go back. If this is the case our suggestions need to carry this bad situation forward into a usable solution.
I do understand not wanting the message to get lost in translation i defiantly get that, but we are talking about coding here. From what i can tell they have fully integrated these features (badly yes) and it is likely non-viable to revert back as this would mean them gutting the code for communities which at this point blizz simply wouldn't even consider tbh. So if we cant revert then we must take what we have and make it work for us by making improvements.
So I found out this evening that even as the GM of the guild, I cannot edit the officer note. Fortunately the /guildroster still works.
Have there been enough comments about how broken the feature is yet?
07/27/2018 04:01 PMPosted by
Nysalla
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Agreed. Which is why we're kind of upset at this change because its a step backwards in many ways.
Right now it is yes.... But if we focus on how to make the current interface better that is progress. If the were to revert the changes it would be a bandaid and lets face it the way it is now is the way it will be. So lets focus on moving forwards because this is what we have now. It's not going to just vanish. It was reverted on pre-patch launch because communities was disabled thats it. We have the chance to have input and make it awesome. So lets do that instead of filling the thread with this silliness.
No. Sorry. What you don't seem to get is that what has been done is to make things less granular in an area where the finer control the more granular the control the better off you are. The more slices you have to divy out in order to accomplish a task means different jobs (guild recruitment for example) can be assigned a recruitment officer role (rank) and the resultant permissions are just enough to get the job done and no more. This KEEPS the players in the guild honest. A guild recruitment officer likely has no need for flasks or foods or any of that but he does have a need to be able to access guild chat and maybe officer chat channels and quite likely the ability to invite members. He certainly does not need permissions to kick though. Lumping all of those together under IsOfficer (a boolean question that you either are (in which case you have all functions except disband the guild) or you arent in which case you have nothing but the guild perks. There isn't any in betweens and trust me there are a ton of in betweens.
Go back and reread my posts from a few pages ago where I discussed why if you need those reasons. That post was anything but silly but don't take my word for it.
[quote="207652877850"][quote]Blizzard did not have a lot of guild masters testing these features in the beta population, especially if beta invites where not exclusive to guild masters. The problem was not heavily publicized until the population pool became really large with the live servers.
I had Beta for a time. For a few weeks I would log into beta to look at the guild changes, and for weeks it was just a string of error messages. Eventually I just gave up and never went back to test it. The permissions in the community feature are weighted too much to one selection, officer. The Communities you can create have 4 ranks, but there is no description on what permissions the ranks have. Maybe there was a blog post for it, but I do not recall seeing one. All I know is I have spent several evenings fixing and resetting things.
[quote][quote]Blizzard did not have a lot of guild masters testing these features in the beta population, especially if beta invites where not exclusive to guild masters. The problem was not heavily publicized until the population pool became really large with the live servers.
I had Beta for a time. For a few weeks I would log into beta to look at the guild changes, and for weeks it was just a string of error messages. Eventually I just gave up and never went back to test it. The permissions in the community feature are weighted too much to one selection, officer. The Communities you can create have 4 ranks, but there is no description on what permissions the ranks have. Maybe there was a blog post for it, but I do not recall seeing one. All I know is I have spent several evenings fixing and resetting things.
Don't forget that in early beta, when presumably most guilds were formed, the old permissions system was still in place before communities were released for testing. So many beta guild leaders might not have even seen the changes, because they'd already set things up. I think it was an error to make major changes to guild without specifically asking for feedback regarding them.
...
Right now it is yes.... But if we focus on how to make the current interface better that is progress. If the were to revert the changes it would be a bandaid and lets face it the way it is now is the way it will be. So lets focus on moving forwards because this is what we have now. It's not going to just vanish. It was reverted on pre-patch launch because communities was disabled thats it. We have the chance to have input and make it awesome. So lets do that instead of filling the thread with this silliness.
No. Sorry. What you don't seem to get is that what has been done is to make things less granular in an area where the finer control the more granular the control the better off you are. The more slices you have to divy out in order to accomplish a task means different jobs (guild recruitment for example) can be assigned a recruitment officer role (rank) and the resultant permissions are just enough to get the job done and no more. This KEEPS the players in the guild honest. A guild recruitment officer likely has no need for flasks or foods or any of that but he does have a need to be able to access guild chat and maybe officer chat channels and quite likely the ability to invite members. He certainly does not need permissions to kick though. Lumping all of those together under IsOfficer (a boolean question that you either are (in which case you have all functions except disband the guild) or you arent in which case you have nothing but the guild perks. There isn't any in betweens and trust me there are a ton of in betweens.
Go back and reread my posts from a few pages ago where I discussed why if you need those reasons. That post was anything but silly but don't take my word for it.
Actually if you read my post I was talking about the UI aspect of it not the permissions. So please don't get upset of the misunderstanding on my post. I hate the new permissions system and have said it many times in this thread. I don't disagree with them getting reverted. I do disagree with the interface getting reverted. I like the new interface it needs some tweaks and customization but other than that it's nice. It's the mechanical aspects of the guilds that are in trouble. I get that for sure.
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I had Beta for a time. For a few weeks I would log into beta to look at the guild changes, and for weeks it was just a string of error messages. Eventually I just gave up and never went back to test it. The permissions in the community feature are weighted too much to one selection, officer. The Communities you can create have 4 ranks, but there is no description on what permissions the ranks have. Maybe there was a blog post for it, but I do not recall seeing one. All I know is I have spent several evenings fixing and resetting things.
Don't forget that in early beta, when presumably most guilds were formed, the old permissions system was still in place before communities were released for testing. So many beta guild leaders might not have even seen the changes, because they'd already set things up. I think it was an error to make major changes to guild without specifically asking for feedback regarding them.
I was able to form a guild initially, but going through the permissions would prompt an error. I filled in bug reports, even checked back one evening after someone mentioned to me they had put in changes. When I got online it was the same. I have certainly had thoughts on improvements over the years, and have written many blog posts about it. Nothing I ever thought would help comes close to what they have dropped into the game. To be brutally honest, it almost feels like they just wish those guilds not in the top 200 would just go away and be communities that you can join as many as you want.
I do hope someone that at the very least has run a casual/raiding/social guild for several years is asked for input. I wrote this back in 2015
https://deezwurds.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/taking-on-the-guild-interface
Don't get me wrong, I am happy they are trying to do something, but the feature is not what a lot of people expected as a means to fix what was wrong.
Yeah the permission changes have to be reverted.
As for the Community UI it meaning the channel portion it could probably stand on its own. All the guild addins could just be accessed with one button that again calls up the old Guild Control.
When they want to merge channels with guilds they will first have to make it so that any channels that are made under a specific guild umbrella have some way of being controlled by the GM and officers in the guild.
If any member of a guild can create a channel and say its an official channel of the guild then that might cause issues. Especially if the channel is used to do something which most guilds don't like - loot trading in the background - or making fun of guild members - or complaining about officers. So on..
Anyway a revert of the permission fixes things.
So I found out this evening that even as the GM of the guild, I cannot edit the officer note. Fortunately the /guildroster still works.
Have there been enough comments about how broken the feature is yet?
Seriously! Ok, I just tested, and I can't edit officer note either.
It doesn't give me an error or anything. It lets me pull up the edit box, and type. But when I click "accept," nothing happens.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Can we get at least an explanation of what happened and if it's going to stay or not, or are you just doing this so the complaints can all be shepherded to one thread? I mean, if you don't know, you don't know, it'd just be nice to hear something. The silence is deafening.
My guess if they are extending the thread they are gathering the useful feedback provided here. Which would then be put up to discussion during a meeting when there is enough useful information to bring.
Oh?
Like all the other useful feedback they have "gathered" on the leveling debacle, which feedback has been accumulating since 7.35 was on the PTR?
That would place the approximate date on which there will be a substantive blue response on the topic of Guild permissions, to some time in early 2020.
07/27/2018 08:02 PMPosted by
Takoda
So I found out this evening that even as the GM of the guild, I cannot edit the officer note. Fortunately the /guildroster still works.
Have there been enough comments about how broken the feature is yet?
Seriously! Ok, I just tested, and I can't edit officer note either.
It doesn't give me an error or anything. It lets me pull up the edit box, and type. But when I click "accept," nothing happens.
I just tested and I could set my own note and my own officer note, but couldn't change anyone else's public or officer note
Hey - maybe it means they're working on it! (sadly don't believe that but hopeful)
The biggest problem is just the loss of control. If we could check each permission within the admin window, I don't think there would be a problem. It's just the all or nothing of it that makes it so bad.
07/17/2018 01:24 PMPosted by
Osiris
Apparently hearing reports that they also got rid of the ability to see "Last Online" on the guild roster. I can't login at the moment to confirm for myself.
For example, you would see a player offline and it would say "Last Online < hour" or "Last online 16 days". Now you don't have that information anymore.
Wonderful.
I can confirm it looks like this option is gone.
It's crazy. That was useful information. Removing is was not just pointless but makes the game worse.
*I haven't read far enough to see if anyone else responded to this*
Hit J > Roster
Look under Zone
Tells you how long it's been since someone was last online.
07/27/2018 09:28 PMPosted by
Amanda
...I can confirm it looks like this option is gone.
It's crazy. That was useful information. Removing is was not just pointless but makes the game worse.
*I haven't read far enough to see if anyone else responded to this*
Hit J > Roster
Look under Zone
Tells you how long it's been since someone was last online.
Yeah, it was hot fixed to show last online in the "zone" tab if the player is offline. Initially in 8.0 that was not the case.
We're at 23 pages now, and I suspect this thread will soon get locked without a page extension by Blizzard. I'm going to bump my own post made about this very exact topic. Feel free to continue there if this gets locked.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20766206706
This isn't needed as I've extended the thread cap on this one. Thanks guys!
I repeat, this is the only response we've gotten to the slap in the face blizzard has dished out to guild leaders. Why? Are the devs afraid to admit they screwed up? They didn't ask us?
I'm not even listing what's broken anymore. You have hundreds of posts where we're talking about these problems, but ignore us. Shame on you, blizzard.
Please revert the guild changes immediately.
if we can get a CM to be able to say something in regards to this that would be fantastic.
I personally would just love to know the thought process of why thy thought simplifying it was a good thing. With that in mind. im sure if they told us that they just simply ran out of time when building the new communities that's fine but let us know if it was intentional or not to simplify the guild settings. tonight during our drinking raid we recruited like 3 people alone but we are unable to invite because we had no officer online. And considering its 2am its unreasonable to ask an officer to hop online to do so.
We core raiders often recruit in place of the Raid leader and officers. Its a team effort that way and taking that away just brings harm to guilds all around. If bliz wants to promote communities.... taking away simple functions for the guild is not the way to do that.
It appears as though the only way this now 36 page thread will see attention by the devs, or even an acknowledgement that it exists other than a thread expansion,is to get this question on the dev chat stream. In a clear succinct manner that doesnt appear as ranty as many of us feel. State the 36+ page thread, state the multiple threads on the bug forums, and state that we want the original granular guild controls back. It really seems to be the only way to get a modicum of attention paid to this horrible change.
Even to say "we hear you and we're working on it, but our implementation of the communities/guilds function is very deep into the game core code and it will take a lot of work to revert the change"